The problem with Evil races is not what you think
Ugh. I'm sorry you had to put up with that. You don't have to be friends with people you game with or even like them but basic courtesy is not optional. Advice to others, not gaming is better than bad gaming or gaming with jerks.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Well, read the entry, it has NOTHING positive, at all, to say about Orcs in 4e! They are described in exactly the same language. Alignment overall may be treated a bit more loosely in some places, but the overall architecture of the 4e cosmology is one in which 'law vs chaos' and 'good vs evil' (they often don't make much distinction, and given that CG is not even an alignment possibility anymore, just being called 'good' know definitely confabulates the two) is a VERY strong theme! The architecture of the Universe itself is Elemental Chaos vs Astral Sea (a realm of placid order and thought more than anything). Beyond that, the Abyss, and Chaotic Evil, the Orcish alignment, are literally an infection rotting the whole structure.
So, yeah, obviously you could play orcs as a more nuanced race with a variety of viewpoints and perhaps spin their 'classic' portrayal as a product of a specific culture. I don't think anything in 4e really encourages that sort of thing.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
There was a group that I gamed with a few times that was EXTREMELY misogynistic. I don't recall racism per-se, but there were several 'toxic' individuals there who really were over the top. Their GM (the brother of one of the ring leader) was actually a really good guy, though. My best friend loved gaming with him and eventually he ended up marrying a woman that was part of our group, though not one of my regular players. The rest of that crowd never did change their tune. AFAIK they're still up to the same tricks as before, though I have not heard anything of them in years.
That was Vermont, which is VERY VERY white, so it may well be they were racist as well, but it never seemed to come up explicitly in my limited contact with them. I will say, other than that, even when I was gaming in an area where there was a lot of racial tensions, I didn't run into gamers who were particularly overtly prejudiced.
But that's just the thing, it isn't really the overt in your face sort of stuff that is the main issue, is it?
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I would think that the use of 'primitive' in that sense is pretty close to its 'classic' definition. A 'primitive' biplane is simply an aircraft of the most basic and original sort. Clearly there is an implication of a more limited technical capability at those tech levels, but Traveller never really associates that with 'race'. In fact the game is extremely vague about culture in general! While it is certainly likely to come up in respect of events in a campaign, potentially, there's no mention of anything like human racial groupings or anything like that, so nothing to link it to there.
Same with alien species, they are depicted as fairly nuanced and complex, with their character being more defined as 'dog people', 'cat people', 'bug people', etc. and even that seems more like 'here is now the Imperium sees them'. They aren't especially depicted as 'primitive' or 'advanced' in most cases, and those races which are less technically advanced have other unique characteristics.
I don't know Marc Miller at all, but mostly his game seems quite divorced from these sorts of issues. Maybe it is more chance than design, he's the only one who can say, and he seems to be a pretty quiet guy.
So because they were "very" white they are likely racist even though you never noticed anything...
You realize that this sentence is the most racist thing uttered in this entire discussion?
Its quite sad that the people who see racism everywhere even where no one exists are blind to their own racist statements.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
No, no. What I'm saying is that VERMONT is very white. It is, look it up, I lived there for more than 30 years. I was married to a colored person part of that time. It isn't especially filled with overtly racist people, either. More the opposite. All I was saying by noting the fact is that you wouldn't KNOW, because you don't run into people there in a context where they are exhibiting their bigotry, if they have it. The context is pretty close to always a bunch of white people getting together. It isn't like we sit around talking about them other folks when we're all together in a room, right?
Anyway, what I quickly discovered, is that there is plenty of institutional/systematic prejudice there, like the rest of the US. It just takes the form of people treating POCs like space aliens or assuming they are all idiotic children, etc.
Not saying you’re wrong, but with that, we’ve probably gone as far into RW issues as we should, agreed?
Book 1 (1977 edition) includes the following on page 8:
A NOTE ON GENDER AND RACE
Nowhere in these rules is a specific requirement established that any character (player or non-player) be of a specific gender or race. Any character is potentially of any race or of either sex.
Nowhere in these rules is a specific requirement established that any character (player or non-player) be of a specific gender or race. Any character is potentially of any race or of either sex.
Looking back at this, it reads like a deliberate if implicit repudiation of the AD&D obsession with both - though it predates the 1978 PHB. I believe there were pre-PHB treatments of sex in the D&D corpus - with stuff about STR limits and CHA minimums and the like - so maybe that is what was being implicitly referenced?
