The problem with Evil races is not what you think

[turnip_farmer]

Heh, I've seen the pictures of Roman art with the color restored. I know I'm not supposed to say this, but, man, they are ugly. It's just weird looking to see those beautiful alibaster busts and whatnot with really, really strong colors all over them.

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Don't worry, you're not at all alone in this sentiment.

I have somewhere a book about art history written in the late 19th century, I'll see if I can dig it out later. It's written very much from the perspective that art can be objectively rated in quality, and classical sculpture was seen as since sort of pinnacle of aesthetic form.

The author, however, was struggling to deal with the, then recent, realisation that classical sculpture had originally been painted in what to his eyes, was garish colour. The white, alabaster aesthetic was that of the Renaissance, not the ancient world. How to reconcile with the worshipful view of classical culture?

The rather weak attempt he falls back on is to ascribe it to light. While in the climate of Northern Europe things obviously look better in pure white, the light in the southern Mediterranean is quite different, so the colour there probably works better than it would in the British Museum!

 

[Ixal]

1. The discussion was about technology, not influence. Yes Philippines traded with China, probably also delivered tribute. So what technology from China spread to the Philippines?
And again, what about the examples from North America and Africa?

2. Lacking advanced technology is exactly what makes your technology primitive. Just a few post ago people finally understood that technology can be rated as primitive, but now you are back to make it a cultural issue and "unable to understand technology", something no one ever said and is also not part of any definition of primitive I have seen

No, disagreeing with me is not childish. What is childish is that you are arguing against strawmans against things no one said and are so unable to admit that you are wrong that you ignore everything posted that you can't twist around to mean something else.

 

[Aldarc]

1. The discussion was about technology, not influence. Yes Philippines traded with China, probably also delivered tribute. So what technology from China spread to the Philippines?

PDF Article: "A History of Science and Technology in the Philippines"

I look forward to your inevitable moving of the goal posts.

And again, what about the examples from North America and Africa?

What about the examples that were already given to you that you ignored?

 

[MGibster]

The issue is that Grippli are ALWAYS described as primitive. And, the Northern European stand ins - in this case Cormyr, are NEVER primitive. Heck, all one has to do is look up and down the Sword Coast description.

And when I see something like this I think to myself, "What's the issue?" It doesn't particularly bother me that the Grippli aren't as advanced technologically speaking as their neighbors. Like many other aspects of D&D, when you think too much about it you realize how silly it all is. It's not realistic but then it doesn't need to be realistic.

Bonus points if you can explain why it is ONLY tribal peoples in the game that are "primitive".

For the Grippli, I imagine it's because they're living in the stone age and possess no real industry.

 

[Hussar]

And when I see something like this I think to myself, "What's the issue?" It doesn't particularly bother me that the Grippli aren't as advanced technologically speaking as their neighbors. Like many other aspects of D&D, when you think too much about it you realize how silly it all is. It's not realistic but then it doesn't need to be realistic.


For the Grippli, I imagine it's because they're living in the stone age and possess no real industry.

But, that's not true.

They have docks made of planks. That means they are put together with nails, most likely. It's pretty hard to build with planks without nails. Tight fighting and water tight. Their trade mission is made of dressed stone - again, not possible with stone age technology. Or, at least, extremely unlikely. They have traded for glass ware and metal pots. Not unusual for a fishing village. Heck, you could look at pretty much any European fishing villages of the time and you'd find the same thing. It's not like a small village will automatically have a glassblower and a blacksmith.

And note, while @Ixal has made great points to point to tribal groups being "primitive", nowhere in the entire adventure, including in the description of grippli, are they described as "tribal". They're a thriving coastal village that has built a fishing industry out of harvesting giant crabs for trade with their wealthy neighbours. Same as any other people. How can you claim that they possess no real industry when they built a massive fish factory? What did they build that with? Big stone pillars in the sea that they have used for centuries.

So, again, explain to me how a non-tribal people, living a day's journey from Baldur's Gate, who regularly trade with outsiders, who build with stone, planks, using nails and hinges, Again, their homes are brick, not simply grass or wood huts. These are not a primitive people by any measure. Poor, maybe. That's to be expected of an isolated fishing village. But primitive? Stone age? Heck, they USE metal weapons - what do you think those tridents are made of? Their arrowheads are steel, not bone or stone.

Nothing in the description in the adventure even suggests that these are a primitive people. Heck, replace Grippli with... oh, I dunno... halflings. Same style homes, everything is pretty much unchanged. Would anyone then describe anything as "primitive"?

 

[Hussar]

/snip

2. Lacking advanced technology is exactly what makes your technology primitive. Just a few post ago people finally understood that technology can be rated as primitive, but now you are back to make it a cultural issue and "unable to understand technology", something no one ever said and is also not part of any definition of primitive I have seen
/snip

Ok, let's work with this a bit.

How advanced?

Is Japan primitive because it doesn't use cheques? Is it primitive since it's home computer use is very close to zero? How primitive compared to who, exactly? Is it that only those with the bleeding edge of technology that aren't primitive? But, then, how do you call one group primitive and another not primitive when it's very likely that one group is more advanced in one area but less advanced in another. You mentioned China and the Opium Wars. You do realize that at the time, China produced the best porcelain in the world. No one else was even close. There's a reason that England imported massive quantities of Chinese porcelain for centuries. Does that mean that England was primitive?

Heck, on the topic of China, on the Tea Horse Road, China would trade tea with Tibet for horses bred in Tibet. Did so for centuries. Tibetan horses were considered the best work horses to be had. Does that make China primitive? But, at that point in time, China was light years ahead technologically than Europe. So, Europe was always primitive until about the 17th Century when European technology, imported from other areas began to widely spread and be used?

You do see why your definition doesn't work here right? Being primitive is not simply "oh, that's a bit old fashioned". Being primitive has pretty strong denotative and connotative meanings. There's a very, very good reason why the writer of The Book of Cylinders didn't use it. And didn't use the word tribal either. Why do you believe that grippli are tribal?

 

[MGibster]

They have docks made of planks. That means they are put together with nails, most likely. It's pretty hard to build with planks without nails. Tight fighting and water tight. Their trade mission is made of dressed stone - again, not possible with stone age technology. Or, at least, extremely unlikely. They have traded for glass ware and metal pots. Not unusual for a fishing village. Heck, you could look at pretty much any European fishing villages of the time and you'd find the same thing. It's not like a small village will automatically have a glassblower and a blacksmith.

You know what? You make a good argument. I'm going to have to agree with you that they're not primitive by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[pemerton]

we're specifically talking about Grippli here as presented in the module. They have steel. The docks are described as being build with lumber planks. They have a HINGED breakwater. Their trading post is freaking dressed stone! The Pond Mother's home is made of mud-brick. That's NOT primitive at all. Note, there are metal and glassware listed as traded items in the house descriptions.

I didn't know these things about the module. To me this reinforces the impression that the description of them as "primitive" is pure authorial stipulation in order to establish the sort of aesthetic that is being analysed and (largely) criticised in this thread.

 

[pemerton]

PDF Article: "A History of Science and Technology in the Philippines"

One interesting point in that article is the discussion of ironworking in the Philippines being displaced by imported goods. The relationship between trade, production and technological diffusion is a very interesting one.

Australia used to make cars but doesn't anymore, for reasons that might be compared (at an appropriate level of abstraction) to iron in the pre-colonial Philippines. I don't think that entails that Australia is "primitive".

 

[Hussar]

Now, just to jump to the other side of the fence for a second. I do think that in this specific case, the criticisms are overblown.

There are 2 things described as primitive: makeshift shelters that the grippli have constructed after being forced from their homes, which, really, isn't too objectionable. The second is a description of their decoration of their homes - using giant crab shells to decorate their homes is described as primitive. That one is totally unnecessary. That's the use that people are largely objecting to.

I mean, good grief, my father is from Nova Scotia. If decorating stuff with shells is primitive, then Eastern Canada is practically stone age. Seriously, if you had a Giant Crab farm, and you had been raising Giant Crabs - crabs with SIX FOOT shells - wouldn't you incorporate that into your architecture?