The problem with knowledge checks

[Shades of Eternity]

The problem with knowledge checks

I was reading the phb and noticed a serious problem.

Knowledge checks have a serious problem with their overall design: namely that you get one shot.

Not per encounter

Not without doing additional research

Not without gaining a level

Not without gaining additional skill points

One roll and your done.

This is a really serious flaw on a skill that through experience (both in scenerios and skill points) is going to go up.

If this is true, if you are curious about that character/item/region, you better not get too curious until you can assess the dc, cause if you missjudge the dc and/or roll not well, the skill is done. A generous gm might give it to you during game play, but by the mechanics it is now useless.

Additionally, you cannot take either 10 or 20 on a knowledge check, even if you are in a library and have hired fellow scholars for weeks on end. It sounds like one of the few times you could retry again and again. I think most of us have spent time researching something for a course for hours on end and if we didn't have the opportunity to "take 10" by being persistant, we probably would have failed that course.

and seeing as their is no research skill in dnd (but their is one in modern d20), aren't the knowledge skills meant to represent well knowledge?

has this been changed in any of the erratas or updates cause it seems seriously dumb

discuss.

 

[billd91]

This is why a DM has to interpret the rules based on what seems reasonable. Though knowledge skills generally don't allow a retry, reasonability suggests that no retries are allowed unless conditions substantially change.

If conditions substantially change by adding skill points, intelligence, or accessing an appropriate library (which I think should provide a circumstance bonus... I even usually allow PCs to take 20 if the library is good enough and they want to take the time), a retry should be allowed. But if none of those changes has happened, allowing no retries is reasonable since knowledge is either something you have or you don't. These changes could alter the knowlege a PC has (or can readily access and use in the case of a rise in intelligence) and should allow a retry on a previously failed knowledge check.

Whether or not this has been addressed in errata isn't really dumb. The nature of the RPG beast is for DMs to interpret and apply the rules as they see fit and appropriate. There doesn't need to be specific errata for a DM to apply some english to the rules to allow PCs to try things that aren't explicitly anticipated in the rules.

 

[IamTheTest]

Perhaps a house rule where given a non pressure situation you could offer some kind of trade off...1 hour of study improves your initial roll by 1 until you hit the DC. For obscure stuff the ratio could be more hours of study for the same increase. I think knowledge works pretty well in instances where you need an answer immediately.

 

[ValhallaGH]

I have the simple house rule of allowing a retry after eight hours of rest. I've found in my own life that after a night's sleep I will remember things that I'd forgotten the day before, and it's happened often enough that I'm fairly certain I did not level on all or most of those occasions . It seems reasonable that what holds true for me would also hold true for a fictional character.

 

[nittanytbone]

(1) Nothing says you can't take 10 with a knowledge skill so long as you aren't rushed or threatened.
(2) Nothing prevents you from taking a difficult problem to a sage, who can probably take 10 on the issue and do quite well; even with non-elite array, a level 4 expert has a +17 check, without an awesome library (Int 2 + Skill Ranks 7 + Skill Focus Feat 3 + Equipment 2 + Guidance spell 1 + Fox's Cunning Spell 2).
(3) You can certainly buy "masterwork tools" (I'd just say a masterwook +2 tool in this case is a particularly useful book or something) or some sort of magic skill boosting item to help your checks.
(4) As a house rule, I might allow rechecks, but each recheck would be at -5.

 

[Rhun]

This is why a DM has to interpret the rules based on what seems reasonable. Though knowledge skills generally don't allow a retry, reasonability suggests that no retries are allowed unless conditions substantially change.

QFT. This is a huge part of even having a DM in the game...they are there to interpret the rules. I agree with billd 100% here.

 

[pawsplay]

You can inport the Research skill from other d20 games. Knowledge checks, as you notice, serve to deliver specific information. They are a measure of general knowledge, not a benchmark for specific pieces of knowledge. Also, you should be allowed a retry after gaining at least one rank in the skill.

 

[Shades of Eternity]

but the problem with bringing in researching skill is it is a crossclass skill for all the classes

Although I personally would make it a class skill for bards, rogues, and wizards

At the same time, it would be easy enough to say one knowledge check retry per day, like gather information with a penalty.

that way we can avoid making a new mechanic for something that is already in place, something 2nd edition had a tendency of doing (how many fake versions of the ranger "kit" were there.)

 

[irdeggman]

I swear I've seen it in places that using Gather Information with Intelligence instead of Charisma for a "library research" type of skill - I just can't find it at the moment. Sort of follows using the alternate abilities for skills sidebar in the DMG.

IMO that would be the better solution.

Knowledge, as written, reflects what a character knows not what he can find out. So either he knows it or he doesn't. IMO changing that concept is asking for trouble becasue it is an inherent part of other things and ranks in knowledge skills give bonuses to many other skills (and abilities) - so adding in another benefit is making it a big potential for abuse.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I swear I've seen it in places that using Gather Information with Intelligence instead of Charisma for a "library research" type of skill - I just can't find it at the moment. Sort of follows using the alternate abilities for skills sidebar in the DMG.

It's in Eberron.

I wish Knowledge didn't rely on tables. I don't need to use tables for most skills.