The Problem With Spot and Listen

[TheRelinquished]

(Note: These observations are all completely opinionated and are not meant in any way to insult the common branches of thought, or to achieve some sort of fame for changing those branches. They are merely my humble insights, and I appreciate any constructive criticisms or opinions regarding them.)

Spot and Listen. Two of the most basic, and essential skills in D&D. While not usually tide-turning, these two core skills cannot go without attention from a player. But there is a problem with Spot and Listen. A mistake, rather, regarding their interaction with other aspects of a character.

The problem was first brought to my attention by Richard Burlew's comic, "Order of the Stick", which parodied the inconsistency in comic #218, in which the main characters save an old man from some ogres. One of the rescuers mentions something about possibly needing to speak up so that the old man can hear them properly. However the old man points out that his hearing and eyesight are even better than they were when he was young, considering that Spot and Listen are both based off of Wisdom, which increases as a character ages.

This is a laughable flaw to which I believe I have a prudent solution.

Spot and Listen checks are, put simply, a measure of a characters sharpness of hearing and eyesight. Thus, the senses should reflect a condition of the body, and later dull as a character grows old and frail. Because of this, I believe that Spot and Listen should be considered physically founded skills that rely on the ever-neglected constitution modifier.

While some may argue that Wisdom based modifiers imply the "discerning" of what one hears and sees, I disagree. That "discernment" is founded in Sense Motive, an entirely different skill which does not determine whether or not the character is capable of seeing or hearing anything in the first place.

Wisdom implies will and common sense (not to be confused with common senses) while constitution implies physical fortitude and bodily wholeness. It is not hard to see (no pun intended) how this would imply that sight and hearing should belong under the constitution umbrella.

Furthermore, considered as an in-game functioning skill in relation to stereotypical PCs, the change makes much sense. A warrior, who relies on avoiding "surprises" to win a battle, is likely to have hightened senses (hand in hand with high constitution). And even what is commonly considered the most fortitudinous of casters, the druid, would be expected to be a wary individual, having spent much time in the untamed wilds.

On the other hand, commonly low constitution characters such as Rogues, Wizards/Sorcerers, and Clerics are expected to be more introverted and studious, having only situational need for high Spot and Listen in their backgrounds. With the Rogue's famously keen hearing and eyesight being purely trained and invested in, rather than coming naturally.

These assertions do not suggest any changes in class skills (i.e. give fighters spot and listen as class skills and take them away for rogues), but only a reconsideration of the way that a character's abilities affect these skills, and possibly how some players allocate those abilities.

Any questions, comments, or concerns will be accepted and considered with an open mind (and in many cases a wordy response).

 

[Lorgrom]

I have always though that all perception based skills (spot, search, listen, scent, etc) should be based off a new stat. Then any skill points a character spends on a specific skill would generate a modifier. The only major problem with this, is that most people I have talked with about it. Say adding another stat (even one that serves a fundimental function) would be as bad as when they added Comeliness (sp?) (another stat I agreeded should be added. Chr in my option is more a guage of personality while Comeliness is your gauge for how good looking, this solves many peoples problem in 2nd edition with elves being good looking but arrigant ie high Comeliness but low Chr).

 

[Anabstercorian]

I think you're on to something here!

 

[XeviatTranion]

While your senses are grounded in the physical health of your body, I think they are more mental than physical. But you are incredibly correct, that vision and hearing do dull with age, but I wonder how the vision and hearing of someone whose profession relies upon them ages. Remember, memmory and other mental faculties deteriorate with age as well.

But are we talking about middle age, old age, or venerable age? Bodies start to fail before the mind. Many people require glasses, but this can set in during childhood. My entire family wears glasses, except me, which I find odd.

I do think the senses should be their own ability score. In my games, I'm adding Perception (Initiative, as well as Listen, Spellcraft, Spot, and Survival skills) and Agility (AC, Reflex, as well as Jump and Tumble skills), and adjusting Dex (All to hit rolls now). This was done mainly because of how my magic system functioned, but also because it sets a better spread of abilities in my opinion.

This does get me thinking about the true effects of old age. I think one thing we are failing to consider is that maybe lethargy causes one to loose experience points, so a retired old man isn't going to be as high level as they were in their prime. We've all heard stories about people being "out of practice", so maybe a mechanic to aid DMs in crafting NPCs would be good? Such a mechanic would also be helpful to PCs; let's say a group of four go out on an adventure, and three get killed. Instead of starting a new game, the three players of the dead characters make new characters, while the other player keeps their character, and the campaign resumes 10 years later. The older character looses a level or two so as to be the same level as the new characters.

Such a system would mean older, non-active people would have lost many of their skill points. Remember, if you don't use it, you'll loose it.

As for good looks, your physical appearance is determined by your physical health. Strong people are taller and more muscled, dextrous people will be more trim and graceful, and hardy people will be free of physically marring diseases and infections (like acne, legions, or growths). Higher physical stats tend to look better, though cultural preferences can change that: "common" preferences will be for high str/con men and high dex/con women. A high charisma score will pad up shortcomings, but when looking at a picture, the majority of a person's good looks come from their physical scores (though it would be safe to assume that a high charisma person will carry themselves better, and thus still look better from afar).

 

[JamesDJarvis]

As for good looks, your physical appearance is determined by your physical health. Strong people are taller and more muscled, dextrous people will be more trim and graceful, and hardy people will be free of physically marring diseases and infections (like acne, legions, or growths). Higher physical stats tend to look better, though cultural preferences can change that: "common" preferences will be for high str/con men and high dex/con women. A high charisma score will pad up shortcomings, but when looking at a picture, the majority of a person's good looks come from their physical scores (though it would be safe to assume that a high charisma person will carry themselves better, and thus still look better from afar).

Uh what about "Marv" from Sin City, STR & CON probably 18 or 20 in D&D trems andgood DEX also but ugly as a mud post and not much else goign fo rhim in the perosaniltiy department. His looks certainly aren't tied to his physcial capacities. I can name tons of ficitional heroes and real life folks that are strong and tough and aren't pretty to look at, it doesn't really hold up that strong or agile or hardy people are going to be physcially appealing people. There are plenty of attractive clumsy, unfit weaklings in film and t.v. all the time.

 

[JamesDJarvis]

Spot and Listen checks are, put simply, a measure of a characters sharpness of hearing and eyesight. Thus, the senses should reflect a condition of the body, and later dull as a character grows old and frail. Because of this, I believe that Spot and Listen should be considered physically founded skills that rely on the ever-neglected constitution modifier.

While some may argue that Wisdom based modifiers imply the "discerning" of what one hears and sees, I disagree. That "discernment" is founded in Sense Motive, an entirely different skill which does not determine whether or not the character is capable of seeing or hearing anything in the first place.

Wisdom implies will and common sense (not to be confused with common senses) while constitution implies physical fortitude and bodily wholeness. It is not hard to see (no pun intended) how this would imply that sight and hearing should belong under the constitution umbrella.

Not that bad an idea really. But in real life it is real easy to hide form folks that don't know how to look. You can hide in a forest by standing next to a tree and not moving. You can hide at night by laying down and not moving. Of course folks might spend a few extra skill points to be able to spot you under those circumstances instead of relying on the impact of wisdom itself.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Simple solution: Middle age: -1 spot/listen
Old age: -2 spot/listen (stacks with previous penalty)
Venerable: -3 spot/listen (stacks with previous penalties)
Easy solution with out changing what attribute skills are linked to.

 

[Cabral]

Except that not everyone's eyesight or hearing deteriorates ...

 

[XCorvis]

Except that not everyone's eyesight or hearing deteriorates ...

It does deteriorate for everyone. Sometimes it's just negligable. For instance, I have never worn glasses, but in the last 2-3 years I've noticed that I can't see quite as clearly at long distance as I used to. I'm 26. By all accounts, I still have great eyesight. I don't need glasses for anything, but my wife can see just a bit farther than I can - when she has her glasses on.

Anyway, I do like the idea of using CON for spot and listen. To me, it makes at least as much sense as using WIS for it.

But on the balance side of things, it makes rogues and fighters even more likely to use WIS as a dump stat, since CON is a better choice for them.

 

[TheRelinquished]

Honestly, I consider Wisdom a dump stat for the fighter now. But that doesn't mean that I'll always sacrafice that stat. After all, Iron Will can only do so much.

But I agree with XCorvis. As a whole, people's eyesight and hearing tend to degrade in later years, much like many people become wiser and more knowledgable (i.e. improved Intelligence and Wisdom stats). But the more important thing to note is that no one's eyesight and hearing grow sharper with age.

Thanks for all the input. Keep it coming!