The problems in Designing a High Magic Campaign.

If you can find it, the central city of the old Al-Quadim campaign was set up to be fairly close to the type of town you describe.

I think it's boxed set was called Huzuz: City of Delights
 

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Re: OOppss !! Lost my Thread.....didn't realise it was moved....sorry for no replys.

Hackenslash said:
Hello all,

Thanks to everyone for their ideas and feedback, especially Piratecat, I really like your suggestions on a "Magic Shop" and what a magic item can cost, other than cold hard cash !! Very interesting. I was thinking along some similar lines that have been posted on this thread but was exploring the possibility of a Highly Magical city with, "Salamander" powered Steam Baths, "Flying Carpet" Taxi's, Bars with "Unseen Servent" waiters, "Self Fabricateing" city walls and other constructions, Magically controlled "Ottyugh sewage disposal units", Common Folk being able to purchase Scrolls with Cantrips of Mending, Cleaning etc....City Guards with Magic weapons, Nobility attending "Pegasai" Race Tracks etc...etc...All of this would just be in one city, while the rest of the campaign world would be a more moderate, or if you prefer standard DnD world. I think i could make this work and as it's only one city, would not be too overpowering on the Campagin World, plus not as much work for me either. Thanks again for all the suggestions and comments. Cheers All :D

That's kinda where I'm going except in my world it will be an island nation with high magic and the rest of the world will be much worse off magically. Even then, I'm finding the whole high-magic thing a headache because of all the things you have to consider to get it "right".
 

Hackenslash said:
Hello again All,

I am now thinking of designing a High Magic campaign. I have already designed the main campaign world, pantheon of gods and continental masses and kingdoms etc......DM'ed a High Magic campaign and difficulties they experienced if any ? Thanks for any advice or suggestions. Cheers All :D

You should ask Shark

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A'koss said:

3. Monsters: If you're dropping down 2 or 3 monster manuals and saying "All these races exist on my world." you should also consider how the PC races managed to survive when you've just dropped 2 or 3 books of far more worthy races on the table. You can always institute the "divine right" clause but then understand what the gods must have done (and must continue to do) to suppress all the other races from achieving dominance. Spawn creating undead are like a virus that has to continually be kept in check, certain EL monsters can wreak absolute havoc on a campaign if allowed to exist, etc.
Cheers,

A'koss.

Not necessarily, that a creature may be morte powerful than an average human, means not his society could briing more power, than the human society on the scale.
Not all racial/social advantages and dísadvantages are of a race/Nation are comparable to PC strength and weaknesses.
The monsters may also need more relative ressources.
Spawn creating Undead is a problem, but i would only allow undead create spawn in an acht of will and with special act, like the Vampire who gives his spawn from his own blood.
 
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one of my favorite high magic worlds was thimhallen from the darksword trilogy. the world was so high magic that the level of life (what they called magic) you could bring to bear dictated your station in society.

the plot revolved around a young man that was born dead(with no ability for magic) that ended up all but destroying the world throug the use of a sword forged out of a magic eating substance.

great set of books and might be worth a read if you havent already.
 

Greetings!

Indeed!:) Hey there Sword Dancer!:)

Well, as to "High Magic" campaigns, much of the previous advice and commentary are quite excellent.

As to some ideas about running High Magic campaigns, there are some thoughts in good order;

In a different thread about "High Magic" campaigning, my friend Dragonblade discussed at length the strange dichotomy within the rules of having virtually all npc's being thought of as 1st-3rd level, as per the DMG's assumptions, while having a different set of assumptions for the player characters, as in they are of course high-level, and have access to magic on a routine basis, and do not fall under the same set of assumptions and restrictions that the standard npc's do.

First of all, this typical campaign assumption, if embraced, brings with it a series of problems and disrupts consistency in a later blossoming "High Magic" campaign.

Unless you want the player characters to run roughshod over nearly every environment that they encounter, this needs to be thrown out the window. To my mind, limiting npc's to such low levels doesn't mesh with reality. I find it difficult to believe that reasonably experienced and skilled adults are usually no higher than 3rd or 4th level. In any event, this kind of thinking is typically a holdover from previous 1st and 2nd edition philosophy, and should be discarded.

Once you as the DM are free of these kinds of assumptions, you are then free to change the assumptions to most adult npc's being in the range of 5th-12th level. This dimension then further extrapolates into there being more characters of whatever class of higher levels, say in the range of 12-30. This then allows for more characters of above 20th level not being quite so rare or extraordinary.

This assumption then makes it more reasonable and easy to design and accomodate challenges for characters above 15th or 20th level. This, of course, makes for a more balanced, logical, and challenging game experience at higher levels.

By the way, this doesn't mean that player characters are no longer special, or that it means that epic level characters are *necessarily* "common". Rather, it simply changes their frequency and logic of occurrence to a higher degree than what is the default assumption. Exactly *what* degree of occurrence, being somewhat more, a lot more, or quite common, for example, is easily left up to you the DM, and easily controlled and extrapolated.

That set of assumptions determined, then, allows one to look to other matters and details.

For example, it isn't really consistent to try and *force* a typical medieval European 12th century environment, in light of the magic that is, according to the base assumptions of the rules, readily available.

Again, for example, the access to even moderately powerful spells of under 5th level would dramatically change any kind of campaign environment beyond recognition to that of a typical 12th century European model that is so often the favourite of many.

Think about the effects of 3rd level Cleric, Druid, and Wizard spells to the fabric of an entire society. The implications are staggering! The effects on the health, livelihood, and happiness of virtually the whole population would be huge. Imagine the effects of a powerful, wealthy, nation-state that would see the effects of magic on the whole society? It isn't unreasonable to assume that powerful kings would finance and support the establishment of powerful churches and wizard guilds so as to increase the training and recruitment of talented and skilled clerics, druids, and wizards. The safety, security, and continued success of the kingdom at large would be at stake, and no monarch would doubt the power and efficiency of magic to affect the kingdom on a constant level.

Essentially, after a few kings put lots of money, support, and energy into it, entire populations would have a broad access and superior health, skill, and efficiency across the board from economics, to agriculture, to engineering, to warfare. Tribes and kingdoms that failed to do so, for whatever reasons, would soon fall way behind and be trapped into a sort of hopleless backwardness and inefficiency that would make them decidedly primitive by comparison to the wealthy, advanced, united, and powerful kingdoms that embraced magic throughout society.

Have you ever thought it strange that throughout many campaigns, the cultural achievement index is always static? What I mean is, why is it after say hundreds, or even thousands of years, a given society is still locked into the 12th century medieval European paradigm? Just imagine what one generation under one energetic king focusing on integrating magic into all levels of society would be like, then imagine the progress that would be made in not only that particular kingdom, but also surrounding kingdoms, year after year. Imagine the advancement after a few hundred or a few thousand years, and it becomes readily apparent that the whole fabric of society would be very, very different.

These reasonable and logical assumptions would then coalesce into magic being integrated throughout all levels of society, where food is plentiful, healing is extensive, and the base population has long, vibrant, productive lives. People would be vastly more efficient with magic to assist them in production, labour, and economics in a myriad of ways.

In consideration of your meliue, these kinds of factors can create a vibrant, unusual world!

As to some philosophy, embrace the high magic of the rules; embrace a logical ecology of creatures, and run with it! Instead of trying to restrict, restrict, restrict,--embrace it with a passion! See where that takes your campaign! Don't be content to merely let the player characters be the movers and shakers and innovators, but have fun yourself! Allowing other npc's for example, to become famous wizards and innovators in society won't necessarily "outshine" the player characters, but instead serve to inspire them with the grandness, the richness, and the fantastic diversity of your campaign world!

Remember--the game is for fun, but also a game of the imagination! Let your imagination run wild! Look at, and *use* the various supplements available! Get into them, many of them, and make them go to work in your campaign meliue! Following these guidelines with some care, and putting some effort not only into the "thoughts behind the machine" but also into integrating them into your campaign world will guarantee an unforgettable campaign experience!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Reading all of this, I feel I have to reitterate that you should consider how spells that high level NPCs can cast DAILY affect the lives of all the other citizens in the campaign world. I do the same as Pirate Cat has mentioned above, just keeping the high level NPCs and magic rare, not over the top but noticeable if the PCs are friends with the Elminster types.

You might want to design 4 or 5 wizards and a cleric of each religion at high levels to give you an idea of the spells they have and how they keep each other in balance if they live in or close to the same city. Think of all of the PrCs that can be had, and how having just one high level lawful evil guy can wreak havoc and undermine everything in the town just through sharing information via scrying or other magical means.

I always advocate planning ahead, far far ahead, for any situations the PCs may run into. I try to give a good layout of the campaign world, but invariably there is always a player that asks "so where's the magic shop in this town?" and I have to explain that although there are magic items for sale sometimes, you have to work for it somehow, such as finding out where an auction is about to be held for a few rare items from a dead noble with no heirs. Knowing the capabilites and limitations of the higher level spells in concert with one another is key, and joining/running an epic level campaign is a good way to start IMO. You can see how dispel magics and two dimension doors work great for robbing a tightly sealed vault at a bank, and how regular scrying at high level in conjunction with other abilities can really affect a campaign. Permanent true sight and other insightful spells that last a long time or have triggers can really make sneaking around a city at night a hazardous affair if spotted.

Have fun with it, and don't be afraid to throw some spells at your PCs out of nowhere to frustrate them, as long as the rewards are equally worth the trouble of figuring out how to counter the magic.
 

Shark, I have a concern with your considerations of average levels of NPcs.: do you find this creates a void for PCs that start at the early levels? any suggestions on how to integrate lower level adventurers into a high-magic world?
 

Greetings!

Originally Posted By Protean

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Quote:

"Shark, I have a concern with your considerations of average levels of NPcs.: do you find this creates a void for PCs that start at the early levels? any suggestions on how to integrate lower level adventurers into a high-magic world?"
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Hey there Protean!:) Well, I can't say that it has presented really any problems. To my mind, there are several things that I keep in mind:

(1) The group may be accompanied by several NPC's that either act as a bit of extra muscle to help the players in their struggle, and/or they may be slightly higher level--as befits more experienced and trained adults and professionals, who help guide the rest of the group and fight alongside them.

(2) The other assumption that I can reasonably make is that while the majority of the adult populations are of higher level, say for humans and such, it doesn't necessarily mean that races like Goblins and other weak 1 or 2 hit dice creatures aren't plenty of a challenge, and have many multitudes of 1 hit dice creatures.

(3) I award experience points for a variety of goals and tasks, as well as traveling and roleplaying. Combat, in my campaign world of Thandor, isn't the only way to gain experience points.:)

(4) Perhaps most significantly, I have developed a Fate Point system where each character begins the game with a set number of Fate Points which can be used to avoid an untimely death or horrid disfigurement and such, per point. The characters may gain additional Fate Points at various intervals throughout different sessions of play, but such Fate Points are only awarded for great and glorious deeds, and for major goal or story accomplishments. I also have discarded--rule zeroed, I suppose!:)--spells like Resurrection, Raise Dead, and Reincarnation, because I don't like what those spells bring to the world, nor do I like the logical implications that would change a society's views of death. I also find the players embrace a casual, cavalier video-game mentality about death, as "we can always get raised!" that, at it's heart, deeply assaults the integrity of the game world. I am just entirely against these kinds of developments, both "in-game" and meta-game wise, so I have developed an elegant Fate Point system that does away with the offending spells easily, and yet provides the player characters, and others!--with a heroic, supernatural measure of grace that allows them to on occasion, and not inexhaustively--to escape the sure jaws of death and utter defeat.

The Fate Point system thus provides characters with the ability to struggle through and generally survive to see 4th level and higher. If they are stupid, of course, well, they have to remember, there's a bullet of sorts out there with their name on it, and when they have exhausted the gods' blessings of divine favour, then the jig is up and they are dead. Time to roll up a new character!:)

Generally, though, if they play smart, and with good teamwork, their Fate Points should be enough to keep them alive to reach higher levels.

Thus, Protean, these are all some of the techniques and considerations that I develop and use within my own campaigns. It doesn't really take that long before they are 4th level at any rate, and they are soon on their way to being heroes!

How's that sound? Let me know what you think.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK
 

Shark, Piratecat, and the others -

Given what you said about the effect of magic on a society, and how it would life-altering it would be, give us an idea of what kind of challenges you would propose for such a society.

I have a hard time imagining orcish hordes being much of a bother, and things such as disease and the undead would be lessened quite a bit.

For me, this is the most challenging issue. I can become very creative when it comes to taking an idea such as how continual flame would have an impact on a city and watching the idea snowball, but when it comes time to craft serious challenges for a party of adventurers (why would anyone need adventurers in such a society?), I get stumped.

Also, don't you risk creatures such as demons, devils, dragons, etc. becoming a bit more mundane in such a world? Do you try to counterbalance that (magic as a tool vs. magic as a mysterious/dangerous force)?

BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read in quite a while! Thanks to everyone involved! :)
 

While I am decidedly not using high-magic/ubiquotus magic, I can give some tips on how to occupy adventurers in such a world.

First, don't see them as forces working for society agisnt threats to society - see them as forces working for some elements of society. In a world of feuding nobles and other factions adventurers can serves as proxies, deniable assets, special guards etc.
Monsters may not be a problem, but someone has to check out why the family next door is pouring such manpower and money into their recently aquired manor. Someone should find out if the daughter of the mayor is having an affair, and with whom, and them someone has to discreetly plant the evidence, or arrange for the mayor to stumble upon a tryst.
Foreign agents may have to be eliminated quietly, or have to be fooled with false intel.
The thieves guild may be as powerful as the mob today, and as resourceful, so the adventurers will have their work cut out for them.
Just surviving a ball without offending someone influiential may be an adventure all by itself - and then add the task of guarding the spirited daughter of the count against seduction attempts or kidnappers to that.
I rarely use monsters in my campaigns, humans do much better as villains and allies for me.

Edit: Almost forgot: The best thing about this sort of challenges is that you can learn the best ways to use all those high-magic gear and options by just watching your players at work. See how the solve a more offensive mission, then use the pointers gathered when you run the NPCs in the next adventure, when the players have to foil a plot against them or their patron.
 
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