The problems in Designing a High Magic Campaign.

[MarauderX]

Shark, Piratecat, and the others -

Given what you said about the effect of magic on a society, and how it would life-altering it would be, give us an idea of what kind of challenges you would propose for such a society.

I have a hard time imagining orcish hordes being much of a bother, and things such as disease and the undead would be lessened quite a bit.

For me, this is the most challenging issue. I can become very creative when it comes to taking an idea such as how continual flame would have an impact on a city and watching the idea snowball, but when it comes time to craft serious challenges for a party of adventurers (why would anyone need adventurers in such a society?), I get stumped.

Also, don't you risk creatures such as demons, devils, dragons, etc. becoming a bit more mundane in such a world? Do you try to counterbalance that (magic as a tool vs. magic as a mysterious/dangerous force)?

BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read in quite a while! Thanks to everyone involved!

You are right about the lower level critters becoming a non-issue normally. They have to live very far from your setting if they want to survive, and it's these 'mildly' threatening critters that low level PCs are sent to fight off. However, in the high level/high magic town, undead are still present, as are all the other unpleasantries, just in a more subtle manner or of higher power. Zombies won't be skulking around the streets at night, but they may be penned up in someone's basement with a lot of magical pine-scented evergreen trees to hide them away.

I wouldn't consider high level monsters as more mundane, just that perhaps people are more aware of them and what they can do. They are certainly not disposeable, as no high level critter/NPC should be, but the magic they all bring can influence how prosperous a town can become.

Disease and such becomes more powerful as well, and lots of diseased people(~1000) become a big hassle for high level clerics, not to mention trying to contain an outbreak in a typical city.

IMC, high magic means that the public is aware of the amazing things magic can do, and sometimes they expect too much from the casters to solve everyone's problems. Look at it like technology... how much has it helped with everyday things, and what hurdles are we expecting to jump with it that still haven't been solved yet? For my campaign, magic still doesn't work for communication that well, nor for travel, and having information at the right time is often a key to success in many adventures, whether a murder mystery or a larger battle.

As far as details, I would think about how clean the streets would be, how farming techniques may have improved, how cities and towns have grown because of safer trade, how the arts have flourished through magic, and how other lands beyond affect one another via trade, i.e. bringing rare materials that make new spells possible. Of course with all of that exposure brings new villans to exploit others and/or steal magical resources to their own devious ends.

Some other challenges would be critters that can get along with a higher magic society, such as Rakshasa or polymorphed lesser dragons, and they try to muscle their way into power or promote a certain quasi-evil group to lead the city/nation. Also keep in mind that just because someone holds a prominant position, like sherrif, doesn't mean they are high level. Perhaps the town council are all just Rogue1/Aristocrat 12. What if the new mayor was a lich that had means to prevent true sight? I think a lot goes into appearances and deception with higher magic, and trying to balance it with the fighter-types (or a forsaker) can be a tough balancing act.

 

[RangerWickett]

If you have a suitably high-magic world, you might end up with a world not too different from modern Earth. How many invading orcs do we see, or even rabble armies of disgruntled Canadians trying to conquer Wisconsin? None. But in modern fiction we do have alien invasions. So while the Orcs sit and stew in their homes (and maybe cause trouble for outlying villages), the demons and outsiders are the things that trouble society as a whole.

War is an issue, but really big wars don't happen very often because everyone would get killed. Instead you have skirmishes and battles through proxy nations, which give adventurers something to do without having to be part of a 1000+ group of warriors (try fitting those onto a battle mat).

In local affairs, you've got all manner of government conspiracies, secret societies trying to overthrow the government and rule the world, obscure cults that corrupt innocent people into slavering murderers, mad scientists who create abominations. Basically think of the X-Files, crossed with every Hollywood action flick you ever saw, throw in a little Buffy the Vampire Slayer (if you want your PCs to be the chosen ones), and give everyone swords and spells instead of guns and cel phones.

It's not that hard to imagine a high-magic setting where most cities are pretty much safe from threats, with the only real dangers coming from big bad plots. If you want to challenge low-level PCs, have them deal with personal issues and local problems, instead of trying to let them save the world at 1st level. I mean, even Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum were at least 5th level by the end of Independence Day.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Originally Posted By TiQuinn:
____________________________________________________
Quote:

"Shark, Piratecat, and the others -

Given what you said about the effect of magic on a society, and how it would life-altering it would be, give us an idea of what kind of challenges you would propose for such a society.

I have a hard time imagining orcish hordes being much of a bother, and things such as disease and the undead would be lessened quite a bit.

For me, this is the most challenging issue. I can become very creative when it comes to taking an idea such as how continual flame would have an impact on a city and watching the idea snowball, but when it comes time to craft serious challenges for a party of adventurers (why would anyone need adventurers in such a society?), I get stumped.

Also, don't you risk creatures such as demons, devils, dragons, etc. becoming a bit more mundane in such a world? Do you try to counterbalance that (magic as a tool vs. magic as a mysterious/dangerous force)?

BTW, this is one of the best threads I've read in quite a while! Thanks to everyone involved!"
____________________________________________________
End Quote.

Thanks TiQuinn! I'm glad that you like the thread and find it interesting!

In thinking about some of your questions, I think it is important to remember to keep "metagame" thinking separate from "In character" thinking. By this I mean this:

(1) "Do you try to counterbalance that magic as a tool vs. magic as a mysterious/dangerous force?":

I think it is appropriate to allow the *characters* in the game world--both player and npc--to assess for themselves whether they view magic as a "tool" or as some mysterious/dangerous force, as opposed to me, *the DM* imposing that they think such and such. For example, I have some forms of magic, like Chaos magic, that is very wild and unpredictable. Other forms of magic are more controllable, and thus predictable. In some special sites and regions of the world, I have magic operate differently, with unexpected results or side effects. However, with standard wizardry, in most areas, for example, the skills and disciplines used in working with arcane energy can generally be predicted and controlled, and at least "known" to some degree comfortable by professionals--like the wizards themselves. This reality, so to speak, may cause some wizards to view magic as a tool, while non-wizards would almost always view magic as mysterious and wondrous. However, that same kind of unknowing "awe" is, in my view, harder to maintain for an experienced 12th, 20th, or 40th level wizard. Because of that, I don't necessarily find it necessary that I, as the DM, *impose* some metaphysical attitude towards magic upon whatever particular character, if you see what I am saying. Some characters see it as a tool, while most would view it as something mysterious and dangerous.

(2) "Do creatures such as demons, devils, undead, dragons, etc. become more mundane?"

Well, TiQuinn, I would say that depending on how you run such creatures, they are never "mundane". Then again, as to what frequency such creatures are encountered, it needs to be asked "Mundane for Whom?" I don't think such encounters are mundane for anyone--certainly not the general population of the campaign meliue. For adventurers, who are always exploring and seeking out such dangers through epic quests and such, well, they may indeed encounter them more often--but that is something that is really relative after all. For example: I am fairly well-known here for running "High Magic" campaigns. In one campaign right now, the players are primarily 16th-20th level. They have encountered undead a few dozen times; they have encountered giants three or four times; they have encountered monsters like Chimera and Manticores and Hydras a few dozen times; they have encountered humans, humanoids, and monstrous humanoids frequently; they have rarely encountered Outsiders of any kind; they have never fought a demon or a devil, yet; they have never encountered a dragon; Do you see what I'm saying? When does encountering a monster become "mundane?" I think they have fought maybe six chimeras in their careers so far, and a half dozen Beholders, for example. Are chimeras and Beholders "mundane?" I don't think so, but maybe someone might. I think it is important that the frequency of such encounters are appropriate, and even more so, appropriately *located*. In such environments, they can be encountered as to whatever frequency as desired, though they are not necessarily mundane, if you see what I'm saying.

In civilized areas, such monsters and creatures are decidedly rare. That is one, but only one, reason that adventurers are often on the frontier exploring and making raids, is to keep such creatures *rare* for the general populace. Otherwise, disaster would ensue! The wild frontier, after all, is teeming with such monsters. It is in the wild frontier that I can open the door to all kinds of encounters! I have such a huge world, with such unimaginable landscape and wilderness, that it in itself represents something that is virtually unconquerable, so there is always plenty for the player characters to do, if they don't want to hang out in the cities or towns of civilization.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[nikolai]

You're all a bunch of utopians - think again!

If you have a suitably high-magic world, you might end up with a world not too different from modern Earth... ...It's not that hard to imagine a high-magic setting where most cities are pretty much safe from threats, with the only real dangers coming from big bad plots.

I think using high magic to clone modern technology and society is a pseudo-medieval context might not be the only or the most interesting way to go in terms of creating a high-magic campaign setting. Perhaps another way to approach the problem would be to sit down and work out who has the power and why and what they would use it to achieve.

In fact, I think a high magic campaign wouldn't be the utopia almost all the messages are suggesting. Instead I think it'd probably be an incredibly nasty place for ordinary people to live.

Take me for example (Wis 10, Int 10, Cha10). I'm raised by commoner parents in a village. As far as technology goes we've a plough and a wheel. There are other people in the world with godlike power and wealth who ignore us leaving us to face a cruel world (best case) or can do with us as they wish (worst case).

There are people who have a hereditry power to weave magic, this doesn't manifest itself all the time (you still need Cha) but having people occassionally develop spontaneous powers - such as shooting fire from there finger-tips - is going to set them apart from everyone else. The ruling class may well have this power in their blood. I have no hope of developing any talent from this source.

You can also learn magic. But I - as most people - do not have the intellectual ability for this. Those who do need to be taught it by someone who knows it themselves. This could develop in so many ways, I'm not going to even try to cover them all. But some sort of apprectice/slave system where the talented are abducted or are taken away from parents who plead for them to be taught it would perhaps develop. Controling who learns magic like this is also an incredible source of power. Getting to choose who gets taught Read Magic and controling access to spells is going to be really important.

Lastly, you have religion. Again I have no hope of any power from this source. There's also the question of whether religion exists to serve the common people [pretty please - don't hijack the thread with a real world inspired flamewar!]. Clerics are going to serve gods first and foremost - and there will be good and bad gods. What the gods want is a question for your pantheon. But God-kings, a la ancient egypt and monarchs given the divine right of kings may be a possibilty. Also, presumably wisdom just isn't enough - you also have to pass though some sort of revelation before you get spellcasting.

I'd also warn against the tree-hugging/agronomist druids everyone talks about. There's so may ways druids can be done. They can serve the gods of the wild and be opposed to civilisation, they can be guardians mediating between mankind and a cruel nature and dark fey, they can be friends of the forest spirits and indiferent to people etc. etc. etc. - they're not guaranteed to be bunny-loving famine busters.

This other view suggest there'll be hugely powerful elites, who play their own games. Everyone else will just be ants. Creating technology and using it in the real world is at least sort of communal, here there would be individuals with huge power answerable to no-one.

It might also be useful to pose some questions about how the use of magic got to where it is. The PHB just lays out a set of default rules to use with no background. Answering questions like where magic came from (did people invent it), how long humanity has been using it and the history of it's use would add a lot of flavour - just grabbing a medieval town and layering magic over the top doesn't quite cut it, the development of power like that wouild have a dramatic effect of history and society.

I imagine the development of spells like planeshift and the first calling of fiends would be very traumatic experience for the world. Running a thought experiment where you start of in a small village with just commoners and then gradually layer in the history and development of magic and society over time could be a useful concept for another thread.

yours,

nikolai.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Re: You're all a bunch of utopians - think again!

In fact, I think a high magic campaign wouldn't be the utopia almost all the messages are suggesting. Instead I think it'd probably be an incredibly nasty place for ordinary people to live.

I tend to agree. The model I use for Urbis is the Industrial Age - a time when rapid technological advances allowed many people to live quite well, and some people extremely well - but the great unwashed masses were treated hardly better than slaves. In fact, they probably had it worse - at least slaves usually don't have to pay for their own food and shelter...

And if you want to go over fully to strangeness, take a look at Steve Jackson Games' Transhuman Space, a setting full of examples about how high technology can empower humanity - but at the same time, there is lots of potential for abuse in that same system.

 

[TiQuinn]

Thanks, SHARK! I see what you mean!

Greetings!

In thinking about some of your questions, I think it is important to remember to keep "metagame" thinking separate from "In character" thinking. By this I mean this:

I think it is appropriate to allow the *characters* in the game world--both player and npc--to assess for themselves whether they view magic as a "tool" or as some mysterious/dangerous force, as opposed to me, *the DM* imposing that they think such and such. For example, I have some forms of magic, like Chaos magic, that is very wild and unpredictable. Other forms of magic are more controllable, and thus predictable. In some special sites and regions of the world, I have magic operate differently, with unexpected results or side effects. However, with standard wizardry, in most areas, for example, the skills and disciplines used in working with arcane energy can generally be predicted and controlled, and at least "known" to some degree comfortable by professionals--like the wizards themselves. This reality, so to speak, may cause some wizards to view magic as a tool, while non-wizards would almost always view magic as mysterious and wondrous. However, that same kind of unknowing "awe" is, in my view, harder to maintain for an experienced 12th, 20th, or 40th level wizard. Because of that, I don't necessarily find it necessary that I, as the DM, *impose* some metaphysical attitude towards magic upon whatever particular character, if you see what I am saying. Some characters see it as a tool, while most would view it as something mysterious and dangerous.

I don't think anyone can or should "impose" a feeling of awe, but in a world where magic is a lot more common, there are certain things that I would like to keep unique and mysterious, and HOPEFULLY, my players would view it that way as well. It sounds like you're doing that with the chaos magic, and the special sites where magic acts differently.

(2) "Do creatures such as demons, devils, undead, dragons, etc. become more mundane?"

In one campaign right now, the players are primarily 16th-20th level. They have encountered undead a few dozen times; they have encountered giants three or four times; they have encountered monsters like Chimera and Manticores and Hydras a few dozen times; they have encountered humans, humanoids, and monstrous humanoids frequently; they have rarely encountered Outsiders of any kind; they have never fought a demon or a devil, yet; they have never encountered a dragon.

Hmm, interesting twist. Whenever I think of high magic campaign opponents, my mind automatically turns to demons and dragons.

 

[Fenes 2]

I made the experience that sometimes you have to impose on players what the PCs think about magic. In my current Shadowrun campaign the PCs are not as "professional" as they were in the last, or rather, the world is more cinematic, more forgiving.

On the other hand, magic is mysterious. Voodoo-Priests are terrifying, and the PCs, even the mage, feared them. When another player entered the campaign who was still thinking in the "magic=tool" concept I had to tell him that a PC with this stance on magic, especially a non-spellcasting PC, was inappropriate in this campaign since it threatened to ruin the feeling of the campaign and spoil the fun of the other players.

 

[Hackenslash]

I am really glad I started this thread and generated all this positive feedback.

Hello All,

Many, Many thanks to all of you, who have contributed such brilliant and well thought out ideas on how to handle a High Magic campaign. I am so very glad that I started this thread and hope to take full advantage of the information contained within it. My printer has been working over time to keep up with all the responses. One thought that has sprung up in my reading and digestion of the posts, is that most of you feel that "Clerics" and "Mages" (and sorcerors I supose) would dominate the backbone of a High Magic society, and while this may be true in the most part, I feel that I would like to explore the Meta-Phyisical aspect of High Magic. In other words, why not have a campaign, where you are in a magic world, island, city....whatever !! but it's the actual rock, land, environment, place, etc... that is highly magical not just the inhabitants. What would be facinateing to explore is how the inhabitants of this "place" would interact with the, for example "Magical tree of spell storing" or the "Burial ground of sanctuary and preservation" or maybe even the "Stones of Power, Might, Truth or Knowledge" etc....This came to me as an idea based on the David Gemmell novels about "Jon Shannow" and the "Sipstrassi Stone Tales" where "Magic" so to speak is created thru a special material whose limits of power are only exceeded by ones own imagination. Now although this in itself would not work in a DnD world as the Stones or Material would be way too powerfull, and would count as probably "stones of multiple wish" it did spark an interest in Magic being contained in all the surrounding area's materials and characters have to learn how to manipulate it to get their desired effect and eventually control it when things go wrong. So therefore a Fighter would not have a very good chance of manipulation, but could still maybe manage a spark of power, however a spell caster class would have a greater degree of control as they went up in levels etc... Any other suggestions on this type of magic use in a High Magic campaign would be most welcome....Cheers All

 

[Sir Whiskers]

nikolai, whether assuming an average of 10 in npc stats, or that 10 is the median, you will still have a significant portion of the population with one or more stats above 10. This would mean that a LOT of people could be taught basic (1st-2nd level) spells. The rarity would be on the high end, with very few able to master anything above 4th-5th level spells. I was just thinking that this would change the lot of the "unwashed masses", if/when mass education becomes available. Such a world could be taken in numerous directions, including some form of slavery (no education), or a magical version of a technological society (universal education).

Hack, one thing I've been experimenting with in my current campaign is similar to what you ask. All magic comes from the world and, more importantly, how that magical power is used affects the world. If it's used for evil, the magic of the world is slowly corrupted and the effects of that corruption become more common (disease, famine, evil hordes, etc). If, OTOH, the power is used for good and healing, then the blights of the world are healed. If nothing else, this would place some limits on how such great power is used in a high-magic campaign: use it too often for evil and destruction, and you may make a world in which mankind cannot survive. Think of it as MAD (mutually assured destruction), but with magic instead of nuclear weapons.

PS: I agree that this is great stuff. I'm copying most of the posts into a file for use in a future campaign. Thanks all!

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

First or second level are not going to change the basic nature of your relationship to the Elminsters of the world.

For low-level critters I tend to give them the same magical advantages that PCs are going to have.

Because unless some really abberrant magical advantage has developed in some specific corner of the world than everything will have developed in adaptation to a high level of magic.

That would be sort of the Dark Sun response to the proposition of a high magic world.

Though in my case it has manifested in some very unusual world building phenomena.

Another way to play it for low level adventurers is simply not to give them access to the really high level stuff. I think of this as the cold war response to High Magic.

You've got lots of Americans and Soviets running around with much better stuff than you got and generally acting on an entirely different plane from you and with entirely different goals. Mostly you deal with your own problems and try to avoid them. As you grow in power and prestige in your country these guys start to seek you out and attempt to sway you to one side or the other with more training and access to their stuff. Eventually you become a fully accredited cold warrior with little interest in the problems you originally encountered.

Don't mean to draw a parallel between the way magic and technology inform a society so much as the way large imbalances in technical or magical power will inform a society.