D&D 3E/3.5 The problems with 3.5?

[Li Shenron]

And I'm not necessarily talking about things that are a matter of opinion (like "Save or Die") but rather what are all the inherent problems with the system?

Huh? Every single problem is a matter of opinion, bar none.

Surely everyone thinks that his own problems with 3e or 4e or anything else must be universal and can be prooved, but the fact that they believe it, doesn't make it true.

Personally, I have problems with buying and selling equipment practices, and with high-level adventures being hard to design. But sweet spot, flawed math and 15-minutes day mean absolutely nothing to me.

 

[Derro]

I'm sorry, but did he follow the proper EXP penalties for this? If he didn't, no wonder, I can also make a broken character like that too.

Experience penalties have nothing to do with how a character is built only how they advance. To say that this character is broken is erroneous no matter what his favored class because none of these classes are precluded by any other (such as barbarian and monk or bard and paladin, which are still somewhat legal combinations). So this guy ain't broke but without a favored class (unlikely) should probably be a level behind everybody else.

 

[Nail]

I'm sorry, but did he follow the proper EXP penalties for this? If he didn't, no wonder, I can also make a broken character like that too.

No XP penalties if he's human or half-elf since duelist is a prestige class and fighter as his highest class does not count.

Exactly. The PC was a human.

Apparently MithrasRahl doesn't have players that do this multi-multiclassing. ...And that's not a criticism => that could be a Good Thing(tm).

MithrasRahl, you may note on the Optimization boards that Multi-multiclassing (or "dipping") is a common method of making very strong PCs. It's rules legal and doesn't get socked with an XP penalty.

 

[Nail]

It's not just battles; it's the planning out of feat trees, the pre-fight buffs, the conjurations that take place the previous day before an adventure, and all the other things. It's the optimization that takes place when building the character (sometimes fun, sometimes a chore.) You need to go into a high-level encounter with an edge, or you are usually going to die (assuming equally tactically competent opponents.)

Yep.

As a player, I always called off the day after my PC (a Cleric last game) was down to less than half his spells. And we'd always start the day with as many buffs active as I could manage. If that couldn't happen -- or the buffs got dispelled -- we got outta there in a hurry.

At high levels you realize pretty quickly that without buffs, it just not worth wading into it.

 

[moritheil]

The issue in my experience is more that when some players do have that edge, and other - more casual - players don't, it eventually leads to imbalanced gaming.

Well, certainly the disparity between players is yet another angle. The amount of math ranges from trivial to laborious depending largely on how accustomed your players are to doing calculations on the fly.

I'm not talking player personalities getting in the way here. I have a fairly balanced group of personalities. It's rule acumen and character optimization that lead to these discrepancies.

Certainly different levels of knowledge between players can be problematic, though I haven't personally seen the problem as much as the "veteran players, non-veteran DM" problem.

At high levels you realize pretty quickly that without buffs, it just not worth wading into it.

Yup. To answer a post made by another poster concerning this point, obviously a DM can tone down the encounters if he or she wants, but IME that tends to lend an unrealistic feel to the fights.

MithrasRahl, you may note on the Optimization boards that Multi-multiclassing (or "dipping") is a common method of making very strong PCs. It's rules legal and doesn't get socked with an XP penalty.

Yeah, this is really par for the course in a lot of games I see. It's quite common to have up to 7 classes by 12th level. You can argue that that's "twinky" or "abusive" but I have seen quite a few very well thought-out and coherent background stories for all that class dipping. Where multiple PrCs are concerned, usually all the feats and skill points are taken up qualifying for those, which means the builds do not have the feats/tricks that make a straight-classed build as effective. (A paladin/sorc/prestige class build has better saves and BAB, but does not have room to take all the combat feats a paladin would normally get or the metamagic feats a sorc needs to shine. The problem only gets worse when more classes are involved.)

There actually is a trade-off in each case, and the decision to add each class is not a no-brainer (one does not profit by blindly adding classes.)

 

[Slaved]

I once saw a Character who recieved its first point of Base Attack Bonus at Level 7!