D&D General The rapier in D&D

[Steampunkette]

In truth, is -any- weapon made by mortal hands a valid choice against a dragon?

Consider, just for a moment, the sheer -size- of a dragon. What long sword would do more than piss the beast off? No man on earth is strong enough to swing a length of steel hard enough to get to anything vital, -if- they can even get through the SCALES, which are used as a replacement for steel armor within the canon of the game.

Just slapping on dragon scale armor is as effective as scale armor +1 by it's nature. So we're looking at something more durable and protective than steel scales. That's pretty freaking strong!

But then there's the flesh that supports the scales, which has to be strong enough to support ALL THAT WEIGHT. And the muscle below it that has to move the beast around. And then the bones required to support the damned thing!

Square Cube law says that the bigger it gets by a Square it gains weight and mass in a Cube. Which means the bones have to be stronger than an Elephant's bones. Requiring either massive size, intense density, or other materials that are harder and stronger than bone.

A lance would shatter. A longsword would do grazing cuts at best. A crossbow bolt would deflect away from the flesh.

Anything short of Siege Weapons should be nigh useless against dragons. Not even "Half Damage from Nonmagical Weapons" level of useless, I mean USELESS.

"Oh but magic" magic makes them WEAKER than they should be?! How nonsensical is that?

Anyway. Yeah. Rapiers against dragons are a bad idea. So are lances. And hammers. And everything else you can hold in your hands short of an anti-tank rifle.

 

[Lord Shark]

To me though... as soon as you allow for that possibility, then there's no reason to constrict the appearance of the weapon to just the "rapier". If you allow that level of mechanics, then you might as well allow for any manner of what the weapon is and what it looks like. Let a dwarf dual-wield 1d8 "hammers" using DEX. Let a pirate dual-wield 1d8 "sabres" using DEX. Etc. etc.

nods in 13th Age

 

[GreyLord]

Once they did away with the Bastard Sword and basically made the Long Sword of 5e the same thing as the Bastard Sword from earlier editions (especially more like what you had in BECMI), they needed something to fit the role where the Long Sword used to be.

They should have called it an Arming Sword or something like that, but went with the term Rapier.

Rapiers were swords (not those thin little things that they using in fencing...the foil...if anything they were more like the saber but thicker and larger and more robust).

They may be a little thinner than your typical arming sword, but they are full on swords that are sturdy and able to take a lot of punishment.

They became popular for good reason.

However, the real reason I think they came into being was to fill the role that the Long Sword used to fill as the Long Sword moved to filling the same role that the Bastard Sword used to fill (can't use that B word anymore I suppose, has too many bad connotations. Plus, you always had those debates on whether Bastard swords actually really existed, what long swords really were and that they should be called Arming Swords...etc...etc...etc. Ironically, even as they tried to go with making long swords more akin to what they were historically, they still left in the two handed Great Sword which is FAR more of an abomination in relation to what historically swords were used as than anything the Long Sword was in past editions).

 

[aco175]

Giant mythical fantasy beast, Damage determined by rolling dice, What are we waiting for.

 

[Azzy]

In truth, is -any- weapon made by mortal hands a valid choice against a dragon?

According to Tolkien, a bow and arrow works if the dragon is missing a scale.

 

[Steampunkette]

According to Tolkien, a bow and arrow works if the dragon is missing a scale.

Damn it! Foiled by my favorite fantasy linguist...

 

[Charlaquin]

In truth, is -any- weapon made by mortal hands a valid choice against a dragon?

Just this one:

 

[Willie the Duck]

Sometimes I wonder at one point it was decided that a rapier was a suitable weapon for fighting dragons.

Sure, why not? Why, what sword do you normally use to fight dragons in your day-to-day life?

Seriously though, a rapier was added so that people could live out their 3 Musketeers/Inigo Montoya/Zorro (maybe Puss in Boots? now also Lara Raith?) fantasies. ... Just like every other fantasy trope out there. We also have wizards in the thick of battle without armor because tropes (and balance). Also people wearing plate armor while climbing into unexplained treasure-filled deadly holes in the ground.

Beyond that, it should be mentioned that other swords weren't built for fighting dragons either. Fantasy has always been this bizarre amalgam of 'what if magic and dragons actually existed in old-timey days, but it was still recognizably old-timey days instead of what it would actually have looked like if magic and dragons existed.' That's going to inherently have some dissonance. Frankly speaking, rapiers are not high on the list of the dissonant parts.

 

[GMMichael]

Sometimes I wonder at one point it was decided that a rapier was a suitable weapon for fighting dragons.

D&D causes a lot of "sometimes I wonder" moments.

Sometimes I wonder how I can hit a charging enemy dead-on with my longbow and still have to fight him close-quarters afterward.

 

[Celebrim]

A rapier is effectively a long thin metal spear that can be wielded one handed so as to maximize the reach of that spear. That's why they are so effective.

And you can with training put your weight behind that thrust and impale something. You generally wouldn't in a duel commit to that degree because you don't need to and being able to recover and protect yourself is paramount, but if you can buy a spear being dangerous to dragon then I don't see how a rapier is hard to believe.

If this sort of thing really bothers you, then you have to go back to the level of detail that 1e AD&D was going for modeling weapons with its to hit vs AC modifiers and different damages depending on the size of the target.