D&D General The rapier in D&D

[SkidAce]

As said before, let's not think too much about how realistic things are in D&D. Cause they aren't realistic at all. Handheld weapons are bad choice for fighting anything larger than large humanoid creatures. Huge and gargantuan creatures are so big, you can't reach any vital parts at all, and even if you can reach it, you need to go trough some thick hide, muscle and fat to get deep enough to hit vital part.

In short, for anything above large - siege weapons, artillery, magic. T Rex, example for Huge creature, is 13 meters in lenght, 4 meters tall at hips, and weights 8-10 metric tons. In comparison, largest elephants are 4m at shoulder and weight around 6 metric tons. Old dragons would be closer to C130 in size (lenght, mass, wingspan), but with scales comparable to main battle tank armor. So yeah, rapiers. Right

Hmm, disadvantage to hit huge and larger creatures.

 

[TiQuinn]

Don't bring an exacto knife to a lucerne hammer fight.

I shall vanquish the dragon with the Sword of Exact Zero!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes. In a duel. But historically they saw little action in mass combat.



No, not at all. Finesse weapons were probably just a bad idea in the first place, but feat-gating them at least kept things less silly. Your real steel rapier is going to be a lot more deadly in the hands of a Marine than a world-class origami folder.

As in so many other places, dexterity is the real problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, I think people forget that d&d (at least its modern iteration) is a heroic fantasy game, and there's got to be a good amount of suspension of disbelief.

Well, there are a lot of different ways to play "D&D", and this is a general thread.

 

[Steampunkette]

Bringing a spear to a fight against a dragon is useless. You're not getting through it's hide before the haft breaks and/or you are swiped into oblivion.

Same thing with the lucerne hammer. "Evade!" doesn't work against a hand the size of a human torso with fingers as long as your arm tipped with claws as long as your hand coming to you at roughly the speed, and impact force, of a midsize SUV.

Fighting a dragon, for real, would be impossible with any melee weapon. And almost all ranged weapons would be equally ineffective.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have mixed feelings about this. Rapiers are Far Too Good in 5e, definitely, and they make dex-only melee builds too viable and Strength redundant in too many places (and ensure that too many other weapons never get a look in). Dex gets you a good AC, good ranged attacks with the better ranged weapons in the game, and a bunch of bonuses to good skills and a frequently-used saving throw. Strength ... not so much utility. In 3e weapon finesse was basically a mandatory feat for anyone not going the high-str route. Mandatory feats are bad design (as are mandatory invocations, Agonizing Blast I'm looking at you). They're a sign that your base system needs work.

As for real life rapiers - I'm no expert other than a few years of fencing many decades ago, but paperfolder vs marine is a poor comparison. I'd prefer to say a rapier would be more deadly in the hands of a gymnast than a bodybuilder. Speed and flexibility counts, precision point control counts, and that requires your shoulders to have a wide range of motion , and demands fine coordination of your fourth and fifth fingers for disengages etc. I still wouldn't like to get stabbed by a bodybuilder with a rapier, mind you!

But that leads in to the whole debate about all or nothing ability score builds for melee combatants. One day I'd like to see a d&d system in which a Str 14 Dex 14 fighter (your hypothetical marine, for instance) is as effective as as a Str 18 Dex 10 (my bodybuilder) or Str 10 Dex 18 (my gymnast) fighter. Being well-rounded should be a viable strategy.

I just limit availability by the technological era of the local area. Why would folks even use longsword/arming swords and rapiers contemporaneously anyway?

 

[sevenbastard]

One day I'd like to see a d&d system in which a Str 14 Dex 14 fighter (your hypothetical marine, for instance) is as effective as as a Str 18 Dex 10 (my bodybuilder) or Str 10 Dex 18 (my gymnast) fighter. Being well-rounded should be a viable strategy.

Yeah a Str 3 Dex 18 fighter should win a old fashined knife fight versus a Str 18 Dex 14 fighter but statistically they will.

 

[pawsplay]

I'd prefer to say a rapier would be more deadly in the hands of a gymnast than a bodybuilder.

Bodybuilders wouldn't have particularly high strength in D&D. Bodybuilders aren't necessarily climbers or even particularly athletic, they are just specifically conditioned for muscle mass. Maybe a powerlifter or hockey player would be a better comparison? Again, I'll take The Mountain with a rapier over a pickpocket or a sharpshooter. I don't think gymnasts and figure skaters are a good comparison, because in D&D, they would have high Strength scores.

 

[Clint_L]

With all the ridiculousness in D&D, I am fascinated that rapiers are where OP draws the line. But I guess each of us has our bridge too far.

 

[pawsplay]

With all the ridiculousness in D&D, I am fascinated that rapiers are where OP draws the line. But I guess each of us has our bridge too far.

Part of it's that it's such a modern weapon, it begs for an explanation why it's needed in the first place.