The "real" reason the game has changed.

[Aeolius]

You had me until we got to here. The medium of D&D is the imagination...

Fine. In your analogy then, the one constant is the imagination. This I agree with. The method of play, however, is amorphous. Whether one plays in a face-to-face game or in a chat room online, that one constant remains.

D&D without imagination is not D&D, IMO, because making things up is half the fun. And that holographic augmented-reality based D&D isn't quite ready for the likes of me, just yet. I enjoy running games on the fly with non-standard monsters, treasures, and magics. WoW can't handle that one, with today's technology.

 

[engrishonly]

This is where I see D&D heading - real imaginations using a new medium. Computer programs, iPad apps, or holographic augmented-reality simulations; the root of the game remains the same.

But then again I may be biased, as I have not played a face-to-face game in over sixteen years.

I think games without software augmentation will go the way of the buggy whip.

You must be able to do things on a Kindle, ipad, smartphone, and in combinations of that.

Holographic sim is one thing, but there's things that can be done now. Running mechanics through a Java craplet, setting aside the dead tree format for e-publications (not crappy PDF!), keeping track of character paperwork through an app.

If you could have a satisfying character application (not just a sheet, but something that tracks all the bits you need to track), wouldn't you rather have that than bits of paper?

As a DM, I want stuff for tracking all the pieces. Not just Excel, but something I can run on my phone with ease.

There are things the companies should be doing. Hex-based wargaming has evolved over time, so why can't pen & paper RPGs?

And, really, WoW is a direct competitor for the entertainment of it. I don't like WoW, but it's more "the hobby" than D&D is anymore.

The fact that I have to build my own Java apps to do the things I want... it shows how far behind the times this hobby is.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sorry, respectfully, I don't buy the "I have a life" angle. If someone out there wants to play D&D (or game system of choice) or wants to prep said game they will find the time. I have yet to meet a gamer who didn't compromise in order to arrange their game and their prep (and that includes one player who has a partner and 3 young kids!).

Yup. Under the 'I have a life' line of reasoning why not go with Basic? It has low prep time,is an easy to learn system, and can support as much or as little story involvement as desired. For those with limited hobby time it seems like a good choice.

The game has changed due to the industry for the most part. Rules and crunch sell the best so changes are constant in order to keep selling the rules over and over again. Sometimes the fanbase craves detail and complexity and other times desires streamlined simplicity. The specifics of the direction of change are secondary to the change itself.

Fans want new shiny products to be excited about. Companies that want income give the fans those products.

 

[ExploderWizard]

And, really, WoW is a direct competitor for the entertainment of it. I don't like WoW, but it's more "the hobby" than D&D is anymore.

WOW is not part of the same hobby as D&D. They are both fantasy based but very different things. I enjoy them both but do not consider them interchangable types of entertainment.

"The hobby" of which D&D is a part consists of tabletop roleplaying games. These games are appealing because the best content for them comes from the imaginations of the participants. Tech based tools can be used if desired but they are not, nor should they be, required.

The fact that I have to build my own Java apps to do the things I want... it shows how far behind the times this hobby is.

The hobby is just fine. The imagination is a timeless gift that can never be replaced with gizmos and applications.

 

[BryonD]

If you enjoy 3E, you either find more time and/or find more shortcuts.

If you enjoy 4E, you make the conscious effort to give creedence to the story because the system isn't going to push you or remind you.

I completely disagree.

Obviously people's live change and that has an impact. But that doesn't lead to this conclusion.

First, the implication that 4E enjoyment is tied to making "the conscious effort to give creedence to the story" is bogus. It don't doubt that it is true for 4E fans. But, putting it expressly under the 4E column as specifically contrasted to 3E is just a fully flawed assessment of 3E fans.

I've made my point many times before and I don't have issues with supporting the story; be it in regard to 4E or any system. But when 4E says that my wizard gets better at climbing as he levels, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story. When 4E says that challenge level defines attacks, damage, defenses much more than what the challenge in question is, that is the system imposing itself on the story, not simply failing to remind you of a story. Over and over the system is about the game balance and mechanics coming first. Andy Collins strongly endorsed and praised this as a difference between 4E and other editions saying ". In a lot of editions of the game, classes compared to new classes were designed by [first] imagining what could exist in the D&D world, and now I assign the mechanics that make that feel realistic and then I’m done" and that for 4E class design the key is instead "why is this game piece different than another game piece and why do I want to play it instead another game piece."

You can absolutely role play anything in 4E that you can in any other system. But, the presumption of 4E is quite different than most any other system that I have played in that it presumes the roleplay will follow the path assigned by the mechanics rather than the other way around.

I believe that the OP doesn't get the non-4E fan perspective on this.

It is also wrong about 3E fans finding more time or making more time. I have less game time than I did 10 years ago. I play less and I prep less. But the time I spend doing it is pretty much the same as it was when I had more. I just enjoy 15 minutes at a time instead of 2 hours at a time. It has nothing to do with shortcuts or cutting time out of other parts of my life.

Both points are wrong.

 

[BryonD]

WOW is not part of the same hobby as D&D. They are both fantasy based but very different things. I enjoy them both but do not consider them interchangable types of entertainment.

"The hobby" of which D&D is a part consists of tabletop roleplaying games. These games are appealing because the best content for them comes from the imaginations of the participants. Tech based tools can be used if desired but they are not, nor should they be, required.

The hobby is just fine. The imagination is a timeless gift that can never be replaced with gizmos and applications.

I agree. The hobby has ups and downs. (and this is a down right now) But overall it is fine. I think people use different measuring sticks and expect to get the same result. Being a lot smaller than WOW doesn't mean it is any smaller than it was when WOW did not exist.

 

[LostSoul]

I completely disagree.

Obviously people's live change and that has an impact. But that doesn't lead to this conclusion.

First, the implication that 4E enjoyment is tied to making "the conscious effort to give creedence to the story" is bogus. It don't doubt that it is true for 4E fans. But, putting it expressly under the 4E column as specifically contrasted to 3E is just a fully flawed assessment of 3E fans.

I don't think you understand what he's trying to say.

But when 4E says... <snip>

Yes, mechanics have an effect on what happens in the game world.

 

[shadzar]

I think games without software augmentation will go the way of the buggy whip.

You must be able to do things on a Kindle, ipad, smartphone, and in combinations of that.

As a DM, I want stuff for tracking all the pieces. Not just Excel, but something I can run on my phone with ease.

The fact that I have to build my own Java apps to do the things I want... it shows how far behind the times this hobby is.

Lots cut, but some points and disagreement. They won't because age restrictions for entry into using a lot of technology still means tactile object will be required for games not just digital ones, and some people may not make the move to digital.

NO!, you don't need to be able to do things on your 21st century GameBoys. Most of those TOOLS have been turned into TOYS as is and the technology is being abused. For a D&D/computer geek/nerd to say this may sound wierd but, get unplugged and go outside and get some sun and do something with your hands other than texting/tweeting and their equivalents. All you need from the technology is a calculator. I have been using computers for nearly my entire life and programming since before I was 10, and was even using 100 baud modems. The technology is being abused and the advances are not being made in a helpful way, thus the exoflood theory and reasons being given that are just a money grab and scare tactic. You don't need your phone or an electronic device to do everything for you. I surely don't want an electric device to "wipe" for me. We don't need to turn into the people of Wall-E.

You can make things yourself or cold, but it doesnt mean it has to move in that direction JUST for you. Not everyone wants to use phones for such things, and my games have a "no electronic device" rule. Only a calculator if needed, because people cannot stop being distracted by all the other crap on such devices.

Well I say you can, but I don't know if the phones make you share things, and making something for D&D for a phone and sharing it, would likely get the app shutdown by WotC/HASBRO lawyers. You used to be able to and were suggested to write programs to aid in gaming, but one of the problems with edition changes was the change of hands and direction. With such a heavy push, then you lose options to do such things for yourself as the company will want to control all such activities as it will then be able to make money from said apps. DDi as a good example.

The fact you CAN build your own app, means that there is no problem. Just because they CAN make everything fully digital, it doesn't mean they should. Technology is killing innovation in most places and making them lazier and dumber society. Skilled craftsmen are being lost as well as artisans because the tech is being used as a crutch.

Consider most companies are lazy and wont do the same thing two different ways. The electronic is cheaper and can cover a wider audience, so why keep physical product?

All that aside as food for thought, the game doesnt need anything the GAME doesn't need. No electronic device is required to play the game, and when it is, it will just be another on the pile of the last 3 decades worth of computer games.

Do you WANT these electronic crutches to have "apps" to help you? Yes. Does the game need them? No. That is why the game is changing in that way, because people aren't understanding that your wants don' outweigh the needs.

This is in response to you, but as an example of a larger problem that people don't understand. The game and many other things are changing just to be "hip" or the next fad, rather than an actual improvement to performance of the thing that is changing.

Real people be it using those virtual tabletops or real ones, will be more adaptable than a script written into a computer game. So use the technology as the tool it is, rather than let it use you; and make decisions for yourself rather than let the newest piece of needless tech make them for you.

Take the character builder as an example. Many have stated without it they wouldn't play 4th edition because it is too much work, which means the game even has the tech as a crutch. It doesn't even work right from what I have read, and when it does requires gigs of printer spooling because it prints using an outdated format because it wasnt made for text printing. Building the game around crutches only means you are building a faulty game since it requires those crutches and that should be avoided.

 

[houstonderek]

Speaking of older editions, making the game better isn't exactly true is it? 1st edition was a move to go away from Dave, 2nd to move away from Gary, 3rd to move away from TSR completely.

There are more than just one game within the editions is the problem. If it was one game, then they would be interchangeable, but between the editions I can count 7 different games all using Dungeons and Dragons in part or all of their names.

Actually, Holmes, Moldvay/Cook, Mentzer and rules Compendium can be considered different editions of "Basic" or OD&D, depending on how you want to look at it, and "Essentials" is Essentials"kind of a "half edition" in the 3.0/3.5 vein, and one could argue that AD&D 2e with "Skills and Powers" is a half edition as well, so you're actually looking at 9-12 iterations of D&D.

 

[Chainsaw Mage]

I envy the people who have the time and ability to play regularly for hours, and spend 10s of hours each week creating NPCs and such, but I'm not one of them.

You know, I used to feel the same way. I too used to envy the people who have time to play games for hours each week.

But then I realized something--I really DON'T envy them. Because if my life revolved around gaming rather than, say, my beautiful family or my intellectually and emotionally fulfilling career, then it would a sad, depressing state of affairs.

Just my two cents.