The real vorpal sword?

[Drifter Bob]

I, too, am a bit skeptical of the connection (heck, there is one English legend of a knight donning armour with spikes and kicking a dragon to death), but I still find the story amusing, if nothing else

For the record, I make no claim whatsoever as to the validity of the legend that the knight in question killed anything, let alone a dragon, with the depcited falchion or any other weapon. That is just the local legend. The only verifiable truth to any of it is that the falchion apparently does date back to around the 13th century, making it an unusually old sword given it's condition. Most steel swords from before the 15th century are in 'excavated' condition.

I do also think it's fairly likely that Lewis Caroll was inspired by the local legend, but I would have said the same thing if he had grown up in Loch Ness.

DB

 

[Pbartender]

The trouble with the connection between the Conyers Falchion, and Carroll's Vorpal Blade is this:

It lapsed after 1771, and wasn't performed in over 200 years. The falchion was kept at Sockburn Hall, but in 1947, it was presented to the Dean and Chapter of Durham Cathedral by Mr. Arthur Edward Blackett. The ceremony was revived in 1994, when the new bishop took office.

and this:

Lewis Carroll is the pseudonym of the English writer and mathematician Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, b. Jan. 27, 1832, d. Jan. 14, 1898, known especially for ALICE'S ADVENTURES IN WONDERLAND (1865) and THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS (1872).

Carroll had never seen the falchion ceremony in his life, and wrote the stories about a hundred years after the last time the ceremony took place. Granted, he may have heard of the legend and investigated it, but I don't think it had as much influence as that web-site's author might think.

That aside, the legend itself and the corresponding tradition is rather interesting. Not to mention the anomoly of the sword's style of construction. It does look vaguely like an 'upgraded' seaxe... Could be a holdover from the Viking and Saxon invasions.

 

[Drifter Bob]

Carroll had never seen the falchion ceremony in his life, and wrote the stories about a hundred years after the last time the ceremony took place. Granted, he may have heard of the legend and investigated it, but I don't think it had as much influence as that web-site's author might think.

Granted he never saw the ceremony. The sword was probably available for viewing at the local church, and either way, the legend no doubt saturated the area. Plenty of people who live in Loch Ness have never seen "nessie" but are neveretheless influenced by that particular legend.

Anyway, literature is not my forte, I'm satisfied with the argument, beyond that, I really don't care. I'm interested in the weapon and the legend.

That aside, the legend itself and the corresponding tradition is rather interesting. Not to mention the anomoly of the sword's style of construction. It does look vaguely like an 'upgraded' seaxe... Could be a holdover from the Viking and Saxon invasions.

Actually, odd looking as it is, it's a pretty standard local (English) subtype of the Falchion, which goes quite far back. Every sax I have ever seen, including examples of the norse long-sax, was considerably more narrow, has a completely different type of grip, and a totally different blade shape..

DB

 

[Pbartender]

Granted he never saw the ceremony. The sword was probably available for viewing at the local church, and either way, the legend no doubt saturated the area. Plenty of people who live in Loch Ness have never seen "nessie" but are neveretheless influenced by that particular legend.

It kind of depends on what happened to the legend after the ceremony quit... Whether it faded into obscurity and 'displayed' means placed in a dusty closet in a backroom of the town hall, or whether the legend stays prominent on town pride and history and display is a glass case in the center of a shrine in the local church.

I've seen it happen both ways. I may be wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if the falchion was mostly forgotten about until someone in the 90's noticed it and asked a local historian 'hey what's that'?

Anyway, literature is not my forte, I'm satisfied with the argument, beyond that, I really don't care. I'm interested in the weapon and the legend.

Me too.

Actually, odd looking as it is, it's a pretty standard local (English) subtype of the Falchion, which goes quite far back. Every sax I have ever seen, including examples of the norse long-sax, was considerably more narrow, has a completely different type of grip, and a totally different blade shape..

Hrm... You're right. I must be thinking of another type of blade, though I don't know what it'd be called then, and find it difficult to describe... Imagine the profile of the Conyers Falchion blade, but instead of a deep curve to the blade, use straight lines and sharp angles.

The blade I'm thinking of looks not unlike the orc-swords from the recent Lord of the Rings movies, or the blades that many of the Scots peasants carried in the movie Braveheart.

I've seen them occasionally in museums, and they were used (and shaped) very like machetes... Used primarily for cutting brush and small trees when clearing farmland, and sometimes used as makeshift chopping swords in battle.

I wish I could find an image of them...

 

[Pbartender]

Here we go...

This is actually an image of a modern-day Russian Cosmonaut's machete, but it's blade is a good example of the 'square' shaped blade that I'm thinking of...

 

[Drifter Bob]

Here we go...

This is actually an image of a modern-day Russian Cosmonaut's machete, but it's blade is a good example of the 'square' shaped blade that I'm thinking of...

There is something kind of like that depicted in the Marjewescji (sp?) bible which they call a "war brand", it had about a 25" blade with a fairly long grip and no guard. THere were also some early cutlasses which looked something like that but I don't think they existed before the 16the century. I haven't seen too many blades wihch look like that, with the exception of some other falchions. I'll see if I can find something though.

This is replica of another subtype of the falchion here...

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/dstchdo/Falchion.jpg

This replica of a french "baudelaire" falchion as a kind of similar blade shape as well
http://www.ereplicas.com/en-us/dept_229.html

Most of them were more 'knife like' like this MRL replica
http://www.ancientedge.com/product_22_detailed.html

You can see some photos of real falchions (other than the conyers blade) at http://myarmoury.com, though most are rather late era (16th - 17th century)

DB
JR

 

[Pbartender]

This is replica of another subtype of the falchion here...

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/dstchdo/Falchion.jpg

That's almost exactly what I was thinking of.

You can see some photos of real falchions (other than the conyers blade) at http://myarmoury.com, though most are rather late era (16th - 17th century)

That is a very cool site in general. I'll have to bookmark it. The photos alone would make great handouts for weapons found in a D&D game.

 

[reanjr]

For the record, I make no claim whatsoever as to the validity of the legend that the knight in question killed anything, let alone a dragon, with the depcited falchion or any other weapon. That is just the local legend. The only verifiable truth to any of it is that the falchion apparently does date back to around the 13th century, making it an unusually old sword given it's condition. Most steel swords from before the 15th century are in 'excavated' condition.

I do also think it's fairly likely that Lewis Caroll was inspired by the local legend, but I would have said the same thing if he had grown up in Loch Ness.

DB

Does anyone find it irresponsible that they dated the sword by its hilt? Couldn't that have well been added on later?

 

[Henry]

Anyone know what a Russian Cosmonaut is doing with a machete?

 

[Pbartender]

Anyone know what a Russian Cosmonaut is doing with a machete?

Russian Cosmonauts are armed with machetes and shotguns, because, as opposed to early US rockets, their command pods would make their parachute landings on land instead of splashing down in water...

There are a lot of wild animals out in the middle of Siberia, and it could take some time for your comrades to find you.