Atanatotatos
First Post
OOC:Arden delays...
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NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.
The Retaking of Forgehold - 4E
- Thread starter Charwoman Gene
- Start date
SarahRequiem
First Post
OOC: until when? 
You said we saw 2 kobolds slingers climb on top of the small walls. are they still visible by Angel's turn? If yes, She'll shoot the one on the right with an eldritch blast after cursing it.
You said we saw 2 kobolds slingers climb on top of the small walls. are they still visible by Angel's turn? If yes, She'll shoot the one on the right with an eldritch blast after cursing it.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Mal rushes to his right, putting his back against the eastern wall, hoping not to get slammed into by another of those kobold contraption.
-''Don't stand there! Move guys!''
[sblock=ooc]I assume that the flying thingie came from the left and went back that way, since Mal was standing against the left corner. Otherwise Tel would have had an Attack of opportunity (fly-by attack only protects against the target).
On that assumption, I move to the right at I15, walking against the wall the whole time. If it's some kind of Indiana Jones rock coming from that platform, I should be safe in that spot. If follow the lizard... who knows what will happen. Plus, I sacrfice myself to act as a scout. So what do I see?[/sblock]
-''Don't stand there! Move guys!''
[sblock=ooc]I assume that the flying thingie came from the left and went back that way, since Mal was standing against the left corner. Otherwise Tel would have had an Attack of opportunity (fly-by attack only protects against the target).
On that assumption, I move to the right at I15, walking against the wall the whole time. If it's some kind of Indiana Jones rock coming from that platform, I should be safe in that spot. If follow the lizard... who knows what will happen. Plus, I sacrfice myself to act as a scout. So what do I see?[/sblock]
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Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
[sblock=OOC but important]
Delays without times are assumed to be until the Battlefield changes.
Mal thinks those kobolds on top of the wall might be waiting for something...
Flavor text was pretty rotten on the boulder. You can see it starting to drop from the platform with a lot of speed but "initiative wise" it hasn't gone yet and you are not completely sure which direction it is moving.
[/sblock]
Delays without times are assumed to be until the Battlefield changes.
Insight (1d20 2=16)My Last Post said:
Mal thinks those kobolds on top of the wall might be waiting for something...
Flavor text was pretty rotten on the boulder. You can see it starting to drop from the platform with a lot of speed but "initiative wise" it hasn't gone yet and you are not completely sure which direction it is moving.
[/sblock]
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Shalimar
First Post
Mira, darts back the way the group had come (N10), using the angle of the passage to hide her actions from the slingers. Once she is in the shadows the girl unleashes a shuriken at the slinger on the left, burying the throwing weapon in the kobold's chest almost completely.
(OOC: Stealth Move to N10 (1d20+9 = 19, beats passive perception) gains combat advantage vs slinger. Sly Flourish (1d20+9 = 21) hits, deals 20 damage.)
(OOC: Stealth Move to N10 (1d20+9 = 19, beats passive perception) gains combat advantage vs slinger. Sly Flourish (1d20+9 = 21) hits, deals 20 damage.)
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Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
[sblock=OOC to shalimar]N11 has no LOS to the kobolds. N10 has Cover if that is what you need. This of course is going to involve me finally reading and figuring out the frelling stealth rules I've avoided for 1 month.[/sblock]
Shalimar
First Post
[sblock=OOC]All I was looking for was cover, so technically I had cover right where I was, but apparently using part members for cover is controversial so just switch the movement to N10 instead.
Looking at Mike Mearls comments on Sneak attack and Combat advantage apparently WOTC assumes rogues are using sneak attack on almost every attack since that is how they balanced the math to work. With that in mind I'd go for whichever interpretation of stealth most fits that starting point. The way I believe that stealth works is that as long as the character's actions are hidden at the time they make an attack they have combat advantage and can apply sneak attack. It doesn't have to be that the character is completely hidden, just that their actions have to be obscurred, such as moving behind another character and making a stealth check to hide exaclty what form your attack will take.[/sblock]
Looking at Mike Mearls comments on Sneak attack and Combat advantage apparently WOTC assumes rogues are using sneak attack on almost every attack since that is how they balanced the math to work. With that in mind I'd go for whichever interpretation of stealth most fits that starting point. The way I believe that stealth works is that as long as the character's actions are hidden at the time they make an attack they have combat advantage and can apply sneak attack. It doesn't have to be that the character is completely hidden, just that their actions have to be obscurred, such as moving behind another character and making a stealth check to hide exaclty what form your attack will take.[/sblock]
Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
[sblock=OOC]
Yeah, Sneak attack should be slightly harder to use than Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry but not too much. My quick review of stealth says your interpretation is cool so far, and the damage should stand when I finally collate the actions.
[/sblock]
Yeah, Sneak attack should be slightly harder to use than Warlock's Curse or Hunter's Quarry but not too much. My quick review of stealth says your interpretation is cool so far, and the damage should stand when I finally collate the actions.
[/sblock]
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
[sblock=OOC ]I misread, there are indeed kobol on the wall. Edited my previous post. Still want to get to I15. I expect the boulder won't go forward and then make a curve just to squish me. Well, I hope.
Note on stealth as I understand it (and these are IMO);
1 - AFAIK, comrades only provide cover for ranged attack purpose and can't be used for stealth. They don't even provide cover for area or close blast attacks, much less for stealth, IMO.
The fact that the cover works only one way when it is obvious that your ally obstruct your view as much as he obstructs your enemy makes it obvious IMO that this is simply a conditional modifier that apply only to a precise situation (enemy makes a ranged attack against you) and nothing else.
2 - As long as the enemy as LOS and you don't have cover, perception automatically succeeds.
In the curent room, the opportunity for covers are pretty damn slim and I think that it's on purpose. Do note how the previous map had those convenient coffin in the middle of the room, guaranteeing that you could have cover and use steaklth against anyone. That's one stealth firendly room followed by one that isn't. Not every maps are equally stealth friendly, though if you keep fighting in open fields you can start suspecting the DM is out to screw you.
3 - I don't think the maths assumes that rogues gets sneak attack every round. I think that it assumes you get sneak attack every 2 round at heroic level on average. That's why a rogue has a 2/1 advantage in 'striker' damage. If a rogue manages to get a sneak attack opportunity every 2 round, he is doing just as well as a warlock or ranger. If he gets an opportunity 3 rounds out of 4, he is outpacing them by 50% on the extra damage.
At paragon level, the ratio change from 2/1 to 3/2, IMO this is because it becomes much easier as you level up to get combat advantage through conditions inflicted by your comrades or yourself and at that point and you become less dependant on stealth. As a paragon, if you get sneak attacks opportunities 2 rounds out of 3 you are doing as well as other strikers.
*Note that with flanking bonus, I expect that a rogue willing to get in melee a lot can maintain a higher than 50%/rounds sneak attack opportunity but he does so in exchange of taking greater risks whih is its own balance.[/sblock]
Note on stealth as I understand it (and these are IMO);
1 - AFAIK, comrades only provide cover for ranged attack purpose and can't be used for stealth. They don't even provide cover for area or close blast attacks, much less for stealth, IMO.
The fact that the cover works only one way when it is obvious that your ally obstruct your view as much as he obstructs your enemy makes it obvious IMO that this is simply a conditional modifier that apply only to a precise situation (enemy makes a ranged attack against you) and nothing else.
2 - As long as the enemy as LOS and you don't have cover, perception automatically succeeds.
In the curent room, the opportunity for covers are pretty damn slim and I think that it's on purpose. Do note how the previous map had those convenient coffin in the middle of the room, guaranteeing that you could have cover and use steaklth against anyone. That's one stealth firendly room followed by one that isn't. Not every maps are equally stealth friendly, though if you keep fighting in open fields you can start suspecting the DM is out to screw you.
3 - I don't think the maths assumes that rogues gets sneak attack every round. I think that it assumes you get sneak attack every 2 round at heroic level on average. That's why a rogue has a 2/1 advantage in 'striker' damage. If a rogue manages to get a sneak attack opportunity every 2 round, he is doing just as well as a warlock or ranger. If he gets an opportunity 3 rounds out of 4, he is outpacing them by 50% on the extra damage.
At paragon level, the ratio change from 2/1 to 3/2, IMO this is because it becomes much easier as you level up to get combat advantage through conditions inflicted by your comrades or yourself and at that point and you become less dependant on stealth. As a paragon, if you get sneak attacks opportunities 2 rounds out of 3 you are doing as well as other strikers.
*Note that with flanking bonus, I expect that a rogue willing to get in melee a lot can maintain a higher than 50%/rounds sneak attack opportunity but he does so in exchange of taking greater risks whih is its own balance.[/sblock]
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Shalimar
First Post
[sblock=OOC] Mal, please put your OOC comments in an <sblock> so they don't clutter up the thread. As far as your opinions on stealth, the game designers have said that the math was done with the rogue getting sneak attack every round or almost every round.
The other classes can garauntee their sneak attack by spending a minor action, Rogues have to make skill checks to do it (possibly failing), Flank (putting them in danger), or the enemy needs to have been hit with a status effect. That is why the rogue has more damage than the other two classes because its not a 100% certain thing.
You are making pronouncements and declaring how things flat out work when in reality they are ambiguous, and you aren't using the correct model of how often the sneak attack is expected to be active. I disagree with your IMO completely.
The other classes can garauntee their sneak attack by spending a minor action, Rogues have to make skill checks to do it (possibly failing), Flank (putting them in danger), or the enemy needs to have been hit with a status effect. That is why the rogue has more damage than the other two classes because its not a 100% certain thing.
You are making pronouncements and declaring how things flat out work when in reality they are ambiguous, and you aren't using the correct model of how often the sneak attack is expected to be active. I disagree with your IMO completely.
[/sblock]Mike Mearls 4E Designer said:
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