SarahRequiem
First Post
Mal Malenkirk said:What? Hey, don't edit after I have read the post. I didn't go back and now I missed a drinking contest! Damn.
well, Mal got lucky anyway
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The Retaking of Forgehold OOC-4E (Full)
- Thread starter Charwoman Gene
- Start date
well, Mal got lucky anyway
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
My suggested formation is basically
T M Ae
Mi Ar
Ang
Basically a reverse pyramid.
By the nature of movement, most attacks will come from the front; We are moving in that direction. People coming in the rear have to catch up with us. So logically they must be running if we are walking. Have you seen the stealth penalty if you move fast? Even with our lousy perception, we'll hear them coming more often than not.
Also, Angel has 30 hp. One more than Mal! If the worst happen, she'll survive at least one round. Then we are just 4 square away in my scheme. One round and we have reversed the formation. There is no real reason to thin the front by 33% to account for the occasional lurkers. It'll put us at an early disadvantae for the vast majority of encounters in exhcange for a favorable situation in a minority of them.
Considering Teslay ; the reasons for him being in front are so elementary AFAIK that if I am overruled and we decide to put a defender in the rear, It's Mal that will go in the back and Teslayn in the front.
It would annoy the heck out of me to have to hustle to the front 95% of each first rounds, but I'll do it. Placing Teslayn in the best breathing spot is that important IMO.
He does a 5X5 breath as a minor action. This the best possible opening gambit we have against any group that includes minions and it's pretty good the rest of the time. But there is one obvious truth; we don't always win initiative and Tes (like Mal) has a speed of 5.
If he's stuck in the back, even if he wins initiative, he might be forced to swap a standard action for another move to get in good position. That would suck ; Breath + Attack is what we really want, mot just breath.
More importantly, if he loses initiative to the minion, then they are likely to swarm us and with a thinner front, they'll start wrapping around. Then Tes can't get as many targets without hitting the rest of us.
See :
4 minions, 3 man front
Mi Mi Mi Mi
T M A
Remember that flat footed doesn't really exist. Some classes like rogue get an edge when they act first, but the defenders threat area is still effective even before they act. So a three man front keeps a wider line.
Tes might catch them all or at least 3 of them without endangering any of the others.
4 Minions, 2 man front
Mi Mi
Mi Ma Ae Mi
Now the minions act first and start wrapping around. How does Tes catch lots of minions without spitting acid all over Mal and Aelek one he hustle up to the front?
He can't.
Tes in front. It's 2+2. If you want to go with Arden scheme of 1 defender in the back, then it'll be Mal. In that case we sacrifice Mal's ability to stop a moving skirmisher who accepts an AoO to move through the line, but it's a lesser evil.
Trust my limited experience in 4e ; these minions must go down fast. They are not just a nuisance, they do real damage that adds up quick.
EDIT : Well, these 'graphs' sucsk. Basically the pyramid should be balanced and the spread of these minions is all wrong but I hope you get the idea.
T M Ae
Mi Ar
Ang
Basically a reverse pyramid.
By the nature of movement, most attacks will come from the front; We are moving in that direction. People coming in the rear have to catch up with us. So logically they must be running if we are walking. Have you seen the stealth penalty if you move fast? Even with our lousy perception, we'll hear them coming more often than not.
Also, Angel has 30 hp. One more than Mal! If the worst happen, she'll survive at least one round. Then we are just 4 square away in my scheme. One round and we have reversed the formation. There is no real reason to thin the front by 33% to account for the occasional lurkers. It'll put us at an early disadvantae for the vast majority of encounters in exhcange for a favorable situation in a minority of them.
Considering Teslay ; the reasons for him being in front are so elementary AFAIK that if I am overruled and we decide to put a defender in the rear, It's Mal that will go in the back and Teslayn in the front.
It would annoy the heck out of me to have to hustle to the front 95% of each first rounds, but I'll do it. Placing Teslayn in the best breathing spot is that important IMO.
He does a 5X5 breath as a minor action. This the best possible opening gambit we have against any group that includes minions and it's pretty good the rest of the time. But there is one obvious truth; we don't always win initiative and Tes (like Mal) has a speed of 5.
If he's stuck in the back, even if he wins initiative, he might be forced to swap a standard action for another move to get in good position. That would suck ; Breath + Attack is what we really want, mot just breath.
More importantly, if he loses initiative to the minion, then they are likely to swarm us and with a thinner front, they'll start wrapping around. Then Tes can't get as many targets without hitting the rest of us.
See :
4 minions, 3 man front
Mi Mi Mi Mi
T M A
Remember that flat footed doesn't really exist. Some classes like rogue get an edge when they act first, but the defenders threat area is still effective even before they act. So a three man front keeps a wider line.
Tes might catch them all or at least 3 of them without endangering any of the others.
4 Minions, 2 man front
Mi Mi
Mi Ma Ae Mi
Now the minions act first and start wrapping around. How does Tes catch lots of minions without spitting acid all over Mal and Aelek one he hustle up to the front?
He can't.
Tes in front. It's 2+2. If you want to go with Arden scheme of 1 defender in the back, then it'll be Mal. In that case we sacrifice Mal's ability to stop a moving skirmisher who accepts an AoO to move through the line, but it's a lesser evil.
Trust my limited experience in 4e ; these minions must go down fast. They are not just a nuisance, they do real damage that adds up quick.
EDIT : Well, these 'graphs' sucsk. Basically the pyramid should be balanced and the spread of these minions is all wrong but I hope you get the idea.
Shalimar
First Post
Go with Ardens but Tesylan upfront.
Te -- Ae
An Ar Mi
-- Ma --
This way no defender is more than 2 spaces from the front. Mal can step to the front easily and Tesylan and Aelek can step to the back without disrupting the ranged characters. If need be Mira can step to the front between Tesalyn and Aelek to boost the OA line and have Arden blocked from melee.
Te -- Ae
An Ar Mi
-- Ma --
This way no defender is more than 2 spaces from the front. Mal can step to the front easily and Tesylan and Aelek can step to the back without disrupting the ranged characters. If need be Mira can step to the front between Tesalyn and Aelek to boost the OA line and have Arden blocked from melee.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Also; in no formation should we assume we are fighting shoulder to shoulder. In mine, I was assuming a free square between Tes, Mal and Aelek. Could even be 2. The idea is to spread a large line through which the minions need to ay a hefty price to move.
A 3 man front with 1 sqaure between each means a 7 square line that you need to either punch through (and get AoOed) or move around (that's a lot of movement).
---
Also, Arden ; You wrote about your thunderwave spell being our best minion killing ability. It's not. You don't have scorching burst? Because that is a minion killing ability from hell. A range of 10 and a burst of 1 means you can ratchet up the minions kills while laughing maniacally.
The thunderwave is a great, great spell, but it's not for minion control. It's a 'get out of jail' card. It's a :''ARG! GET AWAY FROM ME!'' power.
It's a close spell so it draws no attack of opportunity. It has a push effect (which is only meaningful against non-minions, by the way) that frees you from pesky monsters. The point of the spell is obvious : If our front line is breached or overrun and you get face to face with a big nasty monster, use this spell to push him away and then use your move to retreat to safety now that you are out of his AoO.
Absolutely a life saver.
But if you use it for minion control... It means you uses your move to get closer to the enemies. It doesn't have much of a reach after all, and it catches your allies if they are in the area. You need to be on the front to get a good shot in. And since you will have used your movement to get in position, you will stay near the enemies once you are done.
I give you this bit of news as a world first : It will get you killed. I'm sure you will realize this the first time you do it, but I hope you are not offended by a heads up.
A 3 man front with 1 sqaure between each means a 7 square line that you need to either punch through (and get AoOed) or move around (that's a lot of movement).
---
Also, Arden ; You wrote about your thunderwave spell being our best minion killing ability. It's not. You don't have scorching burst? Because that is a minion killing ability from hell. A range of 10 and a burst of 1 means you can ratchet up the minions kills while laughing maniacally.
The thunderwave is a great, great spell, but it's not for minion control. It's a 'get out of jail' card. It's a :''ARG! GET AWAY FROM ME!'' power.
It's a close spell so it draws no attack of opportunity. It has a push effect (which is only meaningful against non-minions, by the way) that frees you from pesky monsters. The point of the spell is obvious : If our front line is breached or overrun and you get face to face with a big nasty monster, use this spell to push him away and then use your move to retreat to safety now that you are out of his AoO.
Absolutely a life saver.
But if you use it for minion control... It means you uses your move to get closer to the enemies. It doesn't have much of a reach after all, and it catches your allies if they are in the area. You need to be on the front to get a good shot in. And since you will have used your movement to get in position, you will stay near the enemies once you are done.
I give you this bit of news as a world first : It will get you killed. I'm sure you will realize this the first time you do it, but I hope you are not offended by a heads up.
Last edited:
Atanatotatos
First Post
I know scorching burst IS better for minion killing. But keep in mind that you only need to hit to kill a minion. Also thunderwave targets fortitude, which I assume will be lower for kobolds than reflex, which dragonborns' breath targets,so damage dealt does't really count. I'm not offended in the slightest and I absolutely get your point. I did consider the choice of powers. I also have played several controllers, I only think 4e is different from the previous edition and I need to see how much. If anything doesn't work I will retrain, but trust me, I'm not going to recklessly join the front rank to place a thunderwave on a brute.
Also, I believe a fighter's control given by one opportunity attack that stops movement per enemy's turn can't be given up in the front. If we decide that Telsay must stay in the front line, then it's better have it three on first rank. Anything the majority decides is fine with me.
BUT i see really no love for Perception. I have always seen Spot/Listen as vital in 3e. Am I overreacting? Someone please tell me their impression about this,'cause it's really inefficient for a wizard to burn a feat at first level to get perception trained, but I will do it (if Gene allows) if no one has it trained.
Also, I believe a fighter's control given by one opportunity attack that stops movement per enemy's turn can't be given up in the front. If we decide that Telsay must stay in the front line, then it's better have it three on first rank. Anything the majority decides is fine with me.
BUT i see really no love for Perception. I have always seen Spot/Listen as vital in 3e. Am I overreacting? Someone please tell me their impression about this,'cause it's really inefficient for a wizard to burn a feat at first level to get perception trained, but I will do it (if Gene allows) if no one has it trained.
Mal Malenkirk
First Post
Yeah, our perception suck. And yes, it is a power skill.
But Mal is absolutely unable to even consider Skill Training : Perception before level 6 at the absolute earliest.
Toughness
Action Surge
Even though Mal would seriously appreciate +5 to perception, at level 6 through 10, Skill Training will then compete with :
Blade Opportunist
Armor Plate
Durable
Human Perseverance
Powerful charge
If skill training doesn't sneak in the top three by level 10, it then has to compete with paragon tier feat...
Bottom line ; it's unlikely.
---
I'd also point out that Mal doesn't worry about surprise as much as other when being surprised. He's only genuinely annoyed when ranged attacker gets the drop on him. The rest of the time, people will only use the surprise round to get closer to him. Fair enough, one less move to go wack them!
But Mal is absolutely unable to even consider Skill Training : Perception before level 6 at the absolute earliest.
Toughness
Action Surge
Even though Mal would seriously appreciate +5 to perception, at level 6 through 10, Skill Training will then compete with :
Blade Opportunist
Armor Plate
Durable
Human Perseverance
Powerful charge
If skill training doesn't sneak in the top three by level 10, it then has to compete with paragon tier feat...
Bottom line ; it's unlikely.
---
I'd also point out that Mal doesn't worry about surprise as much as other when being surprised. He's only genuinely annoyed when ranged attacker gets the drop on him. The rest of the time, people will only use the surprise round to get closer to him. Fair enough, one less move to go wack them!
Shalimar
First Post
See there is a problem with Mal's logic. He is thinking over the long term in fights when he should be considering that absolutely any fight can kill him. Its better to be balanced and then adjust to the situation.
You also keep assuming that the opponent has to be a lot of faster than us which is wrong. All they need is a good enough Stealth skill to hide from us, and right now that is any stealth check. Also we aren't moving at a speed of 6 squares, we are moving at a speed of 5 squares since we are limited to the speed of the defenders in their heavy armor.
You also keep assuming that the opponent has to be a lot of faster than us which is wrong. All they need is a good enough Stealth skill to hide from us, and right now that is any stealth check. Also we aren't moving at a speed of 6 squares, we are moving at a speed of 5 squares since we are limited to the speed of the defenders in their heavy armor.
Charwoman Gene
Adventurer
I love paranoid players, they always give me the BEST ideas.
SarahRequiem
First Post
mention orcus or his cults, and Angel will be crying in the corner how's that for paranoia?
how's that for paranoia? Similar Threads
