The Return of the Player and the Man Beneath the Mask?

No, no you aren't.

Your GM, like it or not, had/has habits of thought, and a particular take on task resolution - like whether probing ahead with a 10' pole is going to do anything useful, and so on. You're mastering your GM's internal rules, often unwritten and unspoken.

Those internal rules are no more (or less) "everything that a person living in the setting could possible do" than the 4e rules are.

Even if all you were doing is "mastering the GM", which of course, is silly, you'd still be mastering how he deals with combat, exploration, religion, politics and all the social interactions of the world, many of which (like henchman, hirelings, followers, strongholds) have rules in earlier editions to interpret, judge and implement.

In 4th, you proceed from My Precious Encounter to My Precious Encounter, handing the GM your magic item wishlist when you level.

It's an obvious false equivalency, otherwise WotC wouldn't be holding hat in hand claiming they went too far in one direction of play.
 

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In some styles of gaming, often said to be "old school", the player didn't just say, "I search the room". The player had to come up with far more detail, about exactly what part of the room was searched, and how, so as to avoid the inevitable rot grubs, traps, and so on. In 4e, that player would just say, "I search the room."

Of course, nothing about 4E actually leads to "I search the room."

Anyone who tries that at my table gets a blank stare until they explain what exactly they're doing. Alternatively, gets the answer "It is indeed a room. With walls and everything."
 

Its just a matter of where you want your player input focused. Do you want it on the grid or in the collective minds of the others at the table?

Yep.

Combat in D&D was originally designed to be abstract, in order to leave a lot of room for creativity and input from the player. This is not the same as choosing a pre-defined option from a menu of powers.

The system was flexible and simple to accomodate a whole range of possible actions, including "I attack" if the player only had a peripheral interest in combat.

I think you're oversimplifying the situation a tad.

In theory, yes, the system allowed for a lot of creativity from the players. Which is more to say, the system didn't specifically prohibit it, and if the players thought of it, and the GM ran with it, then you were good.

What you seem to be glossing over, or outright missing, though, is that a lot of people don't do well with "blue sky", do whatever you can think of, options. There's even a term for it - option paralysis. When the list of possibilities becomes too great, some (many people, perhaps even most) find it difficult to make a decision.

It is like writing poetry. Some people do well with "free verse". But many others will just stare at the page, unable to choose a structure out of nothing. Give them just a little structure to start with, though, and they're off!

In 1e combat, for the most part, "I attack" was the explicit option in the rules, especially if you weren't a primary spellcaster. Everything else was blue sky. Eventually, you learned your GM, and the other options they supported with the internal rules became clear, and you weren't working blue sky anymore.

As time went on, in D&D and other games, designers learned to use more explicit rules, I think because it led to less guesswork early on in one's time with the game. It is easier in general for new GMs and players to have a good deal more structure. It is all well and good for long-term players to have huge amounts of freedom - at this point, they've developed standards, and never have "blue sky" problems. But, a new person picking up a game - especially a new GM - has a long road to hoe, setting up their own internal rules, if they aren't given options.

Now, I happen to feel that 4e went a little too far down that particular road, but I can see why the general tendency to take that walk is there.

Later editions began to provide more and more rule support for combat, while at the same time, reducing exploration play into a series of die rolls.
For combat lovers this poses no problem, but exploration and socially focused players get thier favorite parts of play squeezed out.

They are left right into the same place they always were, the place that combat also used to be in - the place where the majority of the rules are internal. The explicit rule is "I bluff", and beyond that, you're in the "Blue Sky/whatever the GM supports" arena again. Look at exploration and social areas of today's game like you look at combat in older systems - loose, with a lot of room for player creativity!

The contrast, though, is a bit stunning, and I would prefer they even it out a bit, or at least point it out more - "We made the combat explicit and complex, to reduce the learning curve into the area of the game it seems most folks want most. But social skills and other areas can be a rich game too, but we've left it to your GM to come up with the guidelines there."

And, actually, in 4e they did give a framework that can make the exploration and social games rich - the skill challenge. Unfortunately, they presented it *horribly*. The idea, however, is generally sound - set some levels of difficulty, and let the players figure out how they might use their skills and abilities to meet it.

Not unlike old-school combat.
 

Of course, nothing about 4E actually leads to "I search the room."

Oh, really?

From the Perception skill, 4e PHB, pg 187:

Searching: When actively searching an area... assume you're searching each adjacent square. The DM might allow you to do this as a standard action...

There then follows a table, that gives DCs for finding items depending n how well-hidden they are. It seems to me "I search the room" is where that leads to, as shorthand for "I search each adjacent square, moving around until I've covered the room", which is all the rules say you need to do to search a room.

Anyone who tries that at my table gets a blank stare until they explain what exactly they're doing. Alternatively, gets the answer "It is indeed a room. With walls and everything."

Yep. So you have some unwritten rules as to how searching is supposed to be done. The players must master those rules to succeed. Funny thing, that.
 

Oh, really?

From the Perception skill, 4e PHB, pg 187:

Searching: When actively searching an area... assume you're searching each adjacent square. The DM might allow you to do this as a standard action...

There then follows a table, that gives DCs for finding items depending n how well-hidden they are. It seems to me "I search the room" is where that leads to, as shorthand for "I search each adjacent square, moving around until I've covered the room", which is all the rules say you need to do to search a room.

Having tracked down the appropriate section of the DMG, I acquiesce to your point. It's kind of strange that they put "search the room" in the combat or encounter section to begin with, but it makes sense given WotC's adventure design with 4E.

I've personally always treated anything more interesting than a general trap-and-coin check as a skill challenge, myself. The "I poke every single tile with a 10 foot pole" schtick is still worth avoiding with a simple Perception check, though.

Regardless, I was wrong. I apologize for my erroneous assertion.

Yep. So you have some unwritten rules as to how searching is supposed to be done. The players must master those rules to succeed. Funny thing, that.

Certainly. Like every RPG.

That all said, my previous-edition books are in another state, what does 3E say on Spot or Search checks? The SRD entries doesn't look any more detailed.
 

Regardless, I was wrong. I apologize for my erroneous assertion.

Whatever for? So, one small piece of data you thought was right, wasn't. No big deal.

That all said, my previous-edition books are in another state, what does 3E say on Spot or Search checks? The SRD entries doesn't look any more detailed.

An excellent question. The PHB entry looks just about the same as the SRD description of the skill. It is mostly about searching broad areas, but they do mention ransacking a chest in the table, implying that focused searches are possible.

The 3e DMG does have a couple of relevant paragraphs (pg 91, "The General vs the Specific") which say that if the player's got knowledge of the situation, and uses it, the GM should give a bonus on the check for favorable conditions. It gives the example of a kobold having just run into a room, and a PC follows. If the player says, "I look around the room" they get a Spot check. If the player says, "I know the little bugger just came in here, I look behind the chairs and tables, do I see him?" they get a Spot check with a +2.

Mind you, if the kobold is no longer in the room, that specific information does *not* gain them a bonus to spot the Cloaker on the ceiling. But, neither do they have a penalty.

Which seems to me a good compromise. The player doesn't have to think of every little place a thing might be hidden, and go through the entire list of possibilities in excruciating detail. But, if they know a bit, and use their heads, they can make it go more easily.
 
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In 1e combat, for the most part, "I attack" was the explicit option in the rules, especially if you weren't a primary spellcaster. Everything else was blue sky. Eventually, you learned your GM, and the other options they supported with the internal rules became clear, and you weren't working blue sky anymore.

I have to politely disagree here. I just ran AD&D 1E. The rulebooks have many examples of what to do in combat including ambushes, two-weapon fighting, parrying (haven't seen that in a while), setting a weapon against a charge, charging, mounted combat, aerial combat, underwater combat, use of polearms or not in small melees, poison, fire, grenade like missiles, wrestling, punching, martial arts (one class only but deadly dangerous), assassination, and more. Many of these rules made sense in both a real world sense as well as a game sense (to set a charge you need a long enough weapon for example and you can't use a pike effectively unless you're in a massed unit).

The monster too had some interesting attacks, some quite brutal by today's standard. Poison, missiles, rock throwing, level drain, breath, spells, rend, and more.

Just because people don't use the rules doesn't mean the rules aren't there.
 

Thanks for checking on that, Umbran.

I will say this about 4th edition: While I appreciate its rules structure the most out of the editions, I think my ability to do so is greatly enhanced by my experience with past editions, which has given me a host of tools to fill in some of the gaps in the game, much as the lack of forced RP in 4E leaves plenty of room for voluntary RP.

Personally, I tend to do searches by "focusing."

"I look around the room for anything of interest." will get a very basic description, with maybe a small hint if they roll is especially high (secretly, I pretty much ignore the roll otherwise), providing enough information for the player to look into something more specific, like a statue, painting, or stain. Once they start looking at specifics, then we start getting into more details. They don't have to guess correctly, but interacting with the terrain makes it possible for them to find something of interest near what they're interacting with.

It would do any edition some benefit to have examples of how to utilize such skills, I think, even if they aren't codified as the "right" way to do it.
 

For all the vividness 4E brings to epic battles, it too has holes just like previous editions. For example, if my PC is on a warhorse and it rears up and tries to throw me when I try to ride against a wall of zombies the DM will have to make those rules up. 4E core rulebooks have no ride skill or the lance like previous editions so the DM is on his own.

Since mounts figure into nearly every standard D&D game I run (planar, underwater, ship-based would all be exceptions in my mind not the norm), the lack of rules on mounts and lances in 4E really made me scramble to run combats. Sure I could house rule something on the fly, but since I paid for the rules I expected basic combat rules. Melee, missile, magic, mounted, and simplified mass/seige at the minimum to run fantasy seems necessary--underwater, planar, and aerial would be a real bonus in the core books.
 

Oh man, the lack of mount rules has been bugging me forever.

Give me some mounts that level up with the character already.

I don't think we need a ride skill, but rules on using mounts and vehicles and 3D terrain and so forth are way, way too thin. I've been worried about this since they showed the old "3D" maps at PAX - I asked them if it would allow for a vertical axis and got (what felt like) a long, silent stare before they said no.
 

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