The Return of the Sneaking Man

[The Human Target]

So you would say that all classes should be designed as team players?

I just don't think every character should or can be one, in D&D or anywhere else.

Primarily, yes because its a co-op team game in which everyone shares the same screen time.

I have no problem with the idea of certain characters shining more than others in certain niche situations (basically anything outside of combat, general exploration or roleplaying), but those mechanics should not be super time consuming and the scenes themselves should be limited.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

It sounds to me that you guys want Rogues to be sneaky dirty fighters. You want to play ninjas, thieves, muggers and pirates. You want to be able to sneak up behind someone and stab them in the kidneys, take cheap shots at your opponents crotches, throw dirt in their eyes, use poisons, flashbangs, Greek fire and acid, throw a dozen daggers at once, punch wizards in the throat to stop them from casting spells, trip your enemies and kick them while they are down and you want all the rules you can to support doing stuff like that. I completely agree with you.

I feel that the 5e Rogue should be focus on setting up the enemy and taking advantage of the condition they are in. The Rogue should have access to tricks and abilities that inflict various conditions on their targets and others that allow they to take full advantage of the stuff they just inflicted. They should be the best at using things like poison, explosives and traps. If the Rogue is in a fair fight they messed up.

 

[Aenghus]

In a group game like D&D, the stealth reconnaisance is a potential problem, like netrunning is in cyberpunk, in that it involves a fraction of the group, often just one player, can take a long time, can be dangerous, and doesn't automatically involve the other players.

It can get harder and harder to gather a group of players for games, and everyone probably wants to play, not watch someone else do so for an extended period.

There are a variety of ways of handing the issue. In a small group of players just running the solo mission might be acceptable. In a large group, something like a skill challenge might be used to avoid spotlight hogging. Such missions can be narrated in emails, or run in solo sessions. A flashback or montage sequence could be used in more talky games to illustrate the recce without hogging time.

As for the class name, I heartily approved changing the class name to Rogue, as it makes the class more flexible. Also some players put too much weight on names, and feel obliged to steal all the time when playing a class called "Thief". Which leads directly to the thief class in my experience having the highest death rate from friendly fire in D&D.

 

[ferratus]

I wouldn't call that "take the fighter on directly", myself. That's dirty fighting, not "honorable combat".

Exactly. But some are taking "I want to be able to take on a paladin or fighter in combat" to be some kind of heresy. As long as he takes out the opposition the way a rogue should, why is the fact that he's as effective in combat such a problem?

I don't know about 4E, but 1E-3E certainly allows you fight dirty and do more than massive damage via knife attack, and you usually don't need special rules to do it* (though you might need some equipment at times, such as blinding powder). It does, however, depend on the DM being open to more than the school of "I swing my sword" combat methodology.

* You can do some of these tricks as follows:

I'd emphasize the second last line here. It does depend on what your DM lets you get away with, or how flexible he is. I would also point out that all of the options you mention are buried deep within the splatbooks.

An effective way to fight dirty should be in the PHB, and be as much part of the thief as disabling traps, evading damage and using scrolls. There should be an underworld section of the PHB for blinding powder, garrotes, saps, acids, sedatives, caltrops, marbles, blowguns, concealed weapons, and improvised weapons. What is more, these weapons should have rules to do what they do in the real world, namely level the playing field between the rogue and the fighter.

4E - powers?

Yes, 4e has powers to blind people, cripple people, stun people and even to knock them out. Given that the rogue can do all that in 4e (I call the rogue the "most improved" class), you can see why I don't want to go back to simply being the fighter's backstabbing buddy and the party helper monkey for traps and locks.

I don't think it'd be bad policy, but you do have to be careful on how it is allowed so it doesn't become SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) to handle every enemy.

I don't see why it would be a problem. A fortitude attack means a risk of discovery if you fail, being able to target only one opponent means you can't use it when the target isn't alone. True, its use in combat might be a problem if the thief uses it in lieu of the backstab ability, but with a 1st level sleep spell and other save or suck/die effects that ship has already sailed.

 

[ferratus]

In a group game like D&D, the stealth reconnaisance is a potential problem, like netrunning is in cyberpunk, in that it involves a fraction of the group, often just one player, can take a long time, can be dangerous, and doesn't automatically involve the other players.

It can get harder and harder to gather a group of players for games, and everyone probably wants to play, not watch someone else do so for an extended period.

Which is why time away from the party should be distilled down to a single roll for scouting. A stealth check should be able to tell you who or what is in the rooms or passages ahead.

If there must be a possibility to be caught in a scouting roll, then how about a natural 1? That happens a lot less rarely than failing an opposed stealth/perception check, especially if the DM makes you roll a stealth check every time you move. A failed stealth check meant you were almost discovered and didn't press your luck, while a successful stealth check gives you a hint of what you can expect ahead. For example a scouting roll can tell you if there is a trap, or a guard, or 20 orcs around a campfire.

 

[Nebulous]

I remember playing with the AD&D Complete Thief's Handbook a lot, and back then there was a lot of variety to the class. You could play your Thief as a cat burglar, an acrobat, a pick pocket...

Yeah, i remember that. That Complete book was one of the better ones in the series. There's another thread about adding kits back into 5e. I think they will do that somehow.

 

[ferratus]

Yeah, i remember that. That Complete book was one of the better ones in the series. There's another thread about adding kits back into 5e. I think they will do that somehow.

The Complete Thieves' book allowed for a lot of customization without power creep, probably because the 2e thief class was so customizable. The kits in the complete thieves guide were mostly just build suggestions. Unfortunately, if there was any class in 2e that needed power creep, it was the thief.

It remains however the best book out there for the equipment chapter. Even the magic items were cool. Why the "Mantle of the Mundane" and the "Amulet of Dramatic Death" didn't become iconic D&D items in later editions I'll never know.

 

[Jack7]

Hope everything turns out well.

Thanks, we appreciate that. The bad news is it will require surgery, because of the size of the tumor, and because it is causing her pain and discomfort. The good news is that it is a totally benign, non-cancerous tumor.

Aside from the discomfort, you can't ask for better than that. Still a lot of stuff to do, but looking good. We're all pretty happy.

Thanks to all our well wishers and those who prayed for and encouraged her.

I'll get back to other stuff when I can. Right now we're going to Disney World. (Actually we had to delay our trip to Disney World with all of this, but in my mind, I'm already there. And that's good enough for now.)

 

[TarionzCousin]

I was very disappointed when I joined a 4E group at level 7 and the cleric was the group's scout. He had a higher Perception score and the same Stealth score as the rogue.

When I took over DM'ing, I allowed the rogue to use his Thievery skill for detecting traps, scouting, and other thiefly things.

 

[Incenjucar]

I was very disappointed when I joined a 4E group at level 7 and the cleric was the group's scout. He had a higher Perception score and the same Stealth score as the rogue.

Wait, what's wrong with that...?

Nothing wrong about sneaky priests. Dress them in red, give them fear powers, and call them a Spanish Inquisitor.