D&D 5E (2014) The Rogueish Shenanigans!

[El Mahdi]

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[Joe Liker]

That's my biggest gripe about rogues. Cunning Action cheapens the monk as a speed-based melee class if anyone with two levels of rogue is always faster & more mobile.

Why does it cheapen one class if another class can do a similar thing? Is all of wizardry cheapened because sorcerers can use many of the same spells?

If you are so jealous of other people's two levels of rogue, nothing's stopping you from taking two levels of rogue yourself. Then you'll be faster than all of them. It won't necessarily make you a better monk, but you sure will be fast!

 

[El Mahdi]

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[guachi]

I like the rogue class for the most part. I'm disappointed they are perhaps the weakest of the martial damage dealers.

From what I've found so far, the rogue lags behind in damage just about every martial due to a lack of multiple attacks and ability to increase their damage. Mearls and Crawford overvalued the extra dice from sneak and miscalculated how easy Great Weapon Master is to use. They also gained no abilities like Action Surge, Reckless, and Divine Smite to boost damage.

No one is more mobile than the rogue though. That is nice. Their skill mastery is second to none. The rogue is supposed to be a top martial damage dealer. They are not in 5E. Even the ranger using Sharpshooter is easily challenging me for damage. It's unfortunate the game designers miscalculated the value of particular abilities during actual play yet again. Amazing given the level of play testing. Or maybe they intended the rogue to be behind all the other martial damage dealers. I don't know.

For a Ranger that has Hunter's Mark and/or Colossus Slayer, Sharpshooter isn't that much of a boost and is actually a negative at mid-high AC values. If the DM is prone to giving half-cover penalties for firing into melee, it's a good idea. But you lose all the other goodness you'd get by boosting your Dex by two - skills, initiative, saves and the -5/+10 is really -6/+9 if your Dex isn't already 20.

 

[guachi]

My shenanigans aren't particularly amazing. My rogue is only level 3 so far. Not having a fighting style is actually nice. He hits just as well with a crossbow, shortbow, thrown dagger, or short sword. Sometimes melee is better and sometimes ranged, but it doesn't really have to do with the rogue's abilities but rather the situation.

Having Expertise at level 1 is nice. You can be obviously better at 2 things than others in the party and that means spotlight time! Getting to use sneak attack can be problematic at times, but I took Assassin and the ability to have advantage on turn 1 versus a target that hasn't taken a turn in combat means you can Sneak Attack solo even if you aren't hidden.

Rogue seems to work well with other classes for multiclassing. Martial characters can give you a fighting style and you can get spells from almost anywhere to enhance your sneakiness.

I hadn't planned on being a Rogue, by my Adventurers League game has 9 or so players with about 15 characters and I'm the only Rogue.

 

[Voort]

Why does it cheapen one class if another class can do a similar thing? Is all of wizardry cheapened because sorcerers can use many of the same spells?

If you are so jealous of other people's two levels of rogue, nothing's stopping you from taking two levels of rogue yourself. Then you'll be faster than all of them. It won't necessarily make you a better monk, but you sure will be fast!

Easy there, tiger. Don't assume it is personal. I'm the DM in my group, not a monk player.

The reason I consider it unbalanced is that a monk's weapons and AC pretty much require them to be a hit and run unit, where a rogue can rely on stealth & flanking in combat. The free Hide/Disengage/Dash every round gives rogues a perpetual advantage in the action economy, especially since a monk has to use up a limited resource to get that effect. Your typical monk would need to be 10th level and take the Mobility feat or burn ki every round just to keep up with a 2nd level rogue.

 

[Riley37]

The forums have a section which is specific to 5E.

Should they have a section which is specific to "Combat is All That Matters: Rate Builds by Damage Output"?
And then the people can calculate damage ranges in that section; and the rest of us can discuss all three pillars, outside that section.

I don't have a Rogue PC, but I have a Bard, and there might be crossover in the general topic of shenanigans.

In one of the stock intro stories for 5E, our quest-giver asked us to show up at a certain time and place, and offer a certain item to the people we met there, in exchange for another item, and bring back the results, and also perform a certain secret task. That task was best done with Sleight of Hand, and the other Bard in the party has slightly higher Sleight (or sleightly higher slight?), so he was "face" and handled the transfer. (Hm, in hindsight, given how crucial that one roll was, I should have given him Bardic Inspiration and the cleric should have given him Guidance. Okay, general-case note on shenanigans: when there's a high-stakes roll, and either you beat the foe's Perception or the scenario hits the fan, Guidance and Bardic Inspiration are two ways to help.)

Meanwhile, on the way to the meeting location, my character went Invisible, and snuck around the back, thus getting a look at the "other side" before they entered, and being in position in case things went wrong. (Roguelike, no? Well, not roguelike in the sense of Nethack, but in the sense of hiding in order to attack from behind.) Since the exchange happened smoothly, he scouted around for a good hiding place, found one, settled in, dropped concentration, and then, as the other side departed, cast Detect Thoughts on them, surface level only, hoping for useful info on who they were working for, etc.

Meanwhile, most of the party left the scene by the front door. The paladin, however, who had spotted motion upstairs, decided to go check it out, on his own. As one might guess, he bit off more than he could easily chew, especially since climbing up a ladder, towards a foe waiting at the top of that ladder, has certain tactical limitations. My PC, still hidden just outside the location's rear door, set up caltrops. The paladin ended up jumping out the upstairs window; the NPC team rushed downstairs to give chase, at full speed, banging open the back door, and running onto the caltrops. Caltrop wounds reduced their max Speed, so the paladin had an easy getaway.

Attack rolls, none. Skill rolls, a few, mainly Stealth (with Expertise). Contribution to party success, personal satisfaction, opportunity to remind the paladin "you owe me one, and next time stick to open battle"? Priceless!

 

[Celtavian]

Ahh...so if a player has a different idea for their Cleric, if they decide to play something other than a Buffing Cleric, or just play it in a manner other than how you think they should be playing it, then they are playing the game "incompetently"?

Really? We're going with the "your way of playing is bad/wrong/fun" now...?

Come on, man...it really doesn't need to be this way. It's fine that you like a tactical game where the group works synergistically. It's even fine to state your opinion that the rules aren't very good at supporting the tactical, synergistic style you prefer.

It's not fine that anybody that disagrees or doesn't play that way is doing it wrong.

I'm using the incompetent to mean that if there are two parties facing off against each other and one is using bless and the other is not, the one using bless will most likely win all things being relatively equal.

As far as what you consider fun, I leave that up to you. I don't find it fun to have a cleric that doesn't cast a spell that increases the power of his entire party by a very, very noticeable amount. I would view that player as incompetent whether he was a friend or not. I imagine we differ on what we find fun. I find competent play and well built characters more fun.

 

[Celtavian]

For a Ranger that has Hunter's Mark and/or Colossus Slayer, Sharpshooter isn't that much of a boost and is actually a negative at mid-high AC values. If the DM is prone to giving half-cover penalties for firing into melee, it's a good idea. But you lose all the other goodness you'd get by boosting your Dex by two - skills, initiative, saves and the -5/+10 is really -6/+9 if your Dex isn't already 20.

You boost your Dex then take Sharpshooter. You do both. Not sure why you think you can't.

With the +2 bonus from Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter with an active bless, you pretty much eliminate the +5 penalty.

High AC values hurt the rogue as well, since he will miss more often with his single high damage attack losing all his damage for the round. Whereas the multiple attack classes get multiple rolls to hit a high AC class and have the capacity to boost damage against lower AC classes with Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master.

Watched it in action.

Though I do have the option to use archery and take advantage of Sharpshooter, possibly making a fighter/rogue. I am contemplating doing so. I think it will boost my offense. Part of me wants to play the rogue to high level to determine how well Elusive works in conjunction with spells like blur to make a sort of tank rogue. I also want to see how much Sentinel boosts my damage by allowing me to use Sneak Attack on an opponents turn.

The real thing holding a rogue's damage back is an inability to use Sneak Attack more than once per turn. The rogue is currently the only martial class without the capacity to boost their damage with something like Divine Smite, Action Surge, a spell like hunter's mark, or the like. Sentinel at the moment seems the only way to get around the one sneak attack per turn limitation and Commander's Strike (which not many fighters will take).

If it functions well, it may become a required feat for a optimal rogue that allows them to match (or possibly exceed) the damage of other martial classes now and again.

 

[Celtavian]

Easy there, tiger. Don't assume it is personal. I'm the DM in my group, not a monk player.

The reason I consider it unbalanced is that a monk's weapons and AC pretty much require them to be a hit and run unit, where a rogue can rely on stealth & flanking in combat. The free Hide/Disengage/Dash every round gives rogues a perpetual advantage in the action economy, especially since a monk has to use up a limited resource to get that effect. Your typical monk would need to be 10th level and take the Mobility feat or burn ki every round just to keep up with a 2nd level rogue.

The Disengage action as a bonus action is huge in combat. So is Dash. I could see it hurting the monk not to have the capability. AoOs can be quite a problem when fighting groups or powerful creatures that hit hard. I find the ability to escape immediate combat an amazing defensive ability.

Rogues are pretty high up the defensive capability ladder. I will give them that. Probably just behind paladins and possibly tied with monks...maybe a little higher.