The role of Clerics and Paladins in medieval europe

[hong]

well i dont have a 1e or 2e players handbook any more, but i'm not sure you're right...

Get one. It's right there in the first paragraph of the cleric description.

after all the templars could use sutting weapons, where as the clergy proper couldn't... and thats where the cleric class' weapons restrictions come from.

The weapon restrictions are for game balance, basically. I'm unaware of any real-life restrictions on clerics at large not being able to use bladed weapons. Individual characters may have taken such a restriction on themselves from time to time, of course.

 

[Thorntangle]

personally, i'd avoid the use of the word miracle. were magic to really exist in an medieval environment it wouldn't be viewed as any more miraculous than the "magic" of the forge and the creation of metal. If cure lights were being dished out everyday, they'd lose their "miracle" shean and become "I don't know how it works, but it does. The guy doing it says its god, but i talked to Edith the old witch when she cured me yesterday. See, the you can't even see a scar. She said it was the old gods... I don't know which one of 'em's right, but they can both do the same thing."

kinda changes, doesn't it...

Good points. Divine healing may be so deeply ingrained within a culture that people no longer regard it as miraculous but rather as the normal state of being. I think this would lend credence to the position that people would come to expect divine healing and would prefer it over mundane healing.

It could also lead to some verisimilitudinous (love that word) plot lines. Uprisings when divine healing is withheld. Conflict when church leaders require expensive donations for healing which places it out of the reach of the common man. Divine healing would be an amazing motivator for social action.

I still think there is plenty of possibilities for clamoring crowds following a cleric/paladin for healing. Being a father, I can imagine the desperate measures I would take for my wife or children if they were deathly sick, wounded, or disabled. Knocking on the door of a paladin's quarters or beseeching a cleric on the street would be nothing. If this were to be discouraged, some mechanism would need to be in place. Either threat of punishment for this type of behavior or proactively in the form of permanent clinics that offered divine healing, much like an emergency room.

Another important point: How would clerics/paladins handle the most powerful force in the medieval periods - the plagues? The plagues reshaped europe when they struck down as much as 40% of the populace. People have argued that the plagues enabled much of europe's economic, social and scientific progress.

Could a determined group of Clerics/Paladins stem the flow of plague throughout a region? It seems that after getting struck once, plague prevention would be a high priority and the church/state might even develop plans and organizations whose sole purpose is to combat the plague.

 

[WayneLigon]

Another important point: How would clerics/paladins handle the most powerful force in the medieval periods - the plagues? The plagues reshaped europe when they struck down as much as 40% of the populace. People have argued that the plagues enabled much of europe's economic, social and scientific progress.

Could a determined group of Clerics/Paladins stem the flow of plague throughout a region? It seems that after getting struck once, plague prevention would be a high priority and the church/state might even develop plans and organizations whose sole purpose is to combat the plague.

I think it would be pretty easy for them. Or at least vastly easier than in real life. Paladins are immune to the plague. So they can go into the area and then minister to the afflicted without fear of bringing the plague back out with them. Clerics can cure the actual disease, and again prevent spreading.

Another factor in this would be how much knowledge the gods are willing to let slip to the clergy. Abbot Arthur does a Commune or something similar to ask his god how to combat the foul plague. Does the god say 'kill the rats'? (Couched in some riddle or something, of course). The major speed bump in dealing with the plague, or any major disease like that (it could just as easily have been a massive influenza epidemic, like in.. what? 1914?) is knowing the link between sanitation and disease. (Assuming that in our fantasy world such a link actually does exist.. I'm making that assumption).

If they know that, can work out that one vital fact, things become much much easier for combatting the spread of disease. Such simple methods as hand-washing, or soaking instruments in vinegar, or dousing cuts with vinegar or whatever, will cut the death rate by a tremendous amount. (Vinegar is about the only thing I can come up with just off the top of my head, that pretty much any culture past the iron age can produce; there's probably something better or easier to make but it's the first thing I'm thinking off).

There is a cool passage in Hardy's novels, about how the standard drink ration for a Roman soldier was half water and half vinegar. They didn't get sick in the field like most other armies did, so they kept a greater number of people ready and able to fight. I have no idea if this was actual fact, though.

 

[Tonguez]

But the Plague (and disease in general) is caused by evil spirits - they might take on the form of rats but they are still evil spirits.

And just because the Paladin is immune to disease doesn't mean he can't be a carrier (it just means he wont get sick)...

 

[Sir Edgar]

Clerics and Paladins are living, breathing agents of a deity. They walk the planet with the ability to heal, to discern truth and judge, to destroy. So, how would Clerics and Paladins fit into our medieval europe?

In my opinion, a cleric or paladin, being the living representation of a deity to the average medieval european, would evoke great reverance and awe. They would wield enormous power and influence in almost all levels of society. Certainly much more so than some of the non-classed, lower hierarchy of the church. The appearance of a cleric or paladin on the streets could conceivably cause massive crowds to form and gather for a glimpse or a touch. Or conversely, people could flee in droves from the thought of a vengeful avatar of divine justice prowling the roads. A very powerful cleric or paladin could easily become the subject of direct worship much like the saints of our world.

Many priests and knights during the Middle Ages had to beg for food from the villagers. They were often viewed as parasites and frequently spat on when they came panhandling for alms and such. Most of them wore rags for clothing and starved during the winter months. Some, on the other hand, lived quite well and ate enormous amounts of food and drank heartily. But this was because they were successful gardeners, farmers, or hunters not because the villagers donated such things.

Saints on the other hand were revered and their body parts were extremely valuable. Some people would steal a saint's toe or finger believing it would bring them the same healing powers the rest of the body had. Moving a saint's body to avoid capture by the enemy was considered paramount during times of war. Pilgrims would come to pray at the feet of a saint's corpse hoping for a cure to their illnesses.

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: The role of Clerics and Paladins in medieval europe

Many priests and knights during the Middle Ages had to beg for food from the villagers. They were often viewed as parasites and frequently spat on when they came panhandling for alms and such. Most of them wore rags for clothing and starved during the winter months. Some, on the other hand, lived quite well and ate enormous amounts of food and drank heartily. But this was because they were successful gardeners, farmers, or hunters not because the villagers donated such things.

All the information i have contradicts your point concerning knights. A prerequiste to knighthood is landownership and the rights of landownership. Bachelor knights may have owned no land, but they were promised material support by their lord.

Priests on the other hand, very rarely had to do what you say. Priests had recourse to a large social safty net (the church) and only in times of famine were priest subject to what you say.

As to spitting on a knight? Bah! Not unless you want to pay a fine.

In fact the majority of your post that i quoted above is incorrect enough that i'd recomend picking up a good introductary book, like "life in a medieval villiage" or "life in a medieval town" by francis and joseph gies.

If your just "flumphing," please "flumph" along...


edit: because i cant spell to save my life

joe b.

 

[Thorntangle]

Re: Re: Re: The role of Clerics and Paladins in medieval europe

As to spitting on a knight? Bah! Not unless you want to pay a fine.

I'd agree with jgbrowning. Can you cite a reference for spitting on knights and priests as hated parasites?

 

[WayneLigon]

But the Plague (and disease in general) is caused by evil spirits - they might take on the form of rats but they are still evil spirits.

And just because the Paladin is immune to disease doesn't mean he can't be a carrier (it just means he wont get sick)...

Errr, OK. Didn't realize you were going that route. Protection From Evil will work in that case, since it keeps out possession by evil outsiders; its duration, though, is terrible, and probably would not work to prevent an epidemic unless you can come up with a way to make a permanent item with that. Expensive. They might come up with a way to ward an entire building, but that runs into money. You could bet, though, that a church will be warded that way, and with several other protections as well.

I have no idea what happens when a possessed creature tries to enter the warded area. I suppose it cannot? If so, chance for epidemic prevention goes up. Ward the gates of a building or city, and shoot people that can't pass the ward. Or exorcism them.

I'd think that if you're going to have disease caused by evil spirits, then a 'carrier' probably isn't going to work, nor is it needed. The spirit can just move about on it's own, working mischief. You become a carrier of a disease by having it, and infecting others, so a paladin can't be a carrier in the traditional sense. If the Plague in your world was normal, then he might could transport fleas on his person, but that really won't be appropriate here.

Ideally, you want to find or create a low-level spell for dealing with spirits of disease, or other minor malevolent powers. There's probably something in Oriental Adventures that addesses this. It should be as low-level as possible, so clerics can cast it more than a few times a day, and make an item with it fairly cheaply.

 

[Sir Edgar]

I'd, in turn, recommend reading books besides those suggested by one RPG writer you happen to like. The Gies books are not the "bible" of Medieval Times. I own nearly all of them and I have to say they're quite good introductory books, but relying on any single source can be dangerous. Try going to the library and reading through the books there to get a more diverse viewpoint.

Social classes in the Middle Ages were not as strictly defined as we'd imagine. As commerce grew, merchants emerged as wealthy and influential figures often eating and drinking better than priests or knights. Please refer to "The Middle Ages" by Morris Bishop or "The Year 1000: What Life Was Like at the Turn of the Millennium" by Robert Lacey for a description of the wretched state of many priests and knights that I referred to.

In fact, there were many poor priests and knights (whether by choice or not). While many people may imagine Medieval Europe as a place where princesses in flowing robes awaited their knights in shining armor, it was a much grittier world than that.

For example, Dominican Friars were forbidden to own property, so they often had to beg for food.
http://online.esjc.cc.al.us/scovingt/westciv/unit3-2.htm

"... there were many other orders of clerics who lived like parasites on society: wandering friars, for example, who lived off what they could steal from honest folk."
http://www.saradouglass.com/14th.html

Most of the knights who went off to the Crusades were poor knights. There was an "overpopulation" of knights, especially in Normandy. So, the journey to the Holy Land also provided an outlet for these restless souls many of whom were impoverished and indebted after the various wars (1066 invasion, etc) and ongoing changes in the economic system.

Not all priests and knights were poor, however. Indeed, many were in privileged positions of power and prosperity. However, they did not "evoke great reverance and awe" nor did they "wield enormous power and influence in almost all levels of society" as the starter of this thread stated. Certainly, the mere appearance of any priest or knight on the streets did not "cause massive crowds to form and gather for a glimpse or a touch".

By the way, land ownership is not necessarily a prerequisite for knighthood. Often people were knighted on the battlefield for heroic acts (or being among the few to have survived) without consideration of whether they owned land or not.

One thing I do have to point out is that my comment was focused on priests. However, knights were also not as glamorous as we often conceive either as pointed out. I may have also exaggerated when I said "most of them wore rags", etc. Most did not, but many did.

 

[Sir Edgar]

I got such a great wealth of ideas in the thread about Polytheism in medieval europe , I thought I'd continue to probe for ideas on how to achieve a high degree on verisimilitude in a fantasy game.

Healing - The first and prime ability of a Cleric (and secondarily to a Paladin) is to heal. This alone has enormous implications and would lead me to believe that the life of a Cleric or Paladin would be highly structured and controlled. Access to and by the public would need to be restricted, much like that of a celebrity in today's society. To put this in context, think of this example: If your child/wife/parent were ill or injured in medieval europe, would you want to take them to a physician (sometimes a barber) or a powerful cleric? There is no doubt that a Cleric or Paladin would be constantly beseeched to provide healing unless a mechanism was in place to regulate access to divine healing.

If you're trying to get a more "real" medieval feel for your D&D game, then I'd also have to say that the primary duty of priests and monks during the middle ages was not healing but education. They were probably the most learned group of people in the population. Indeed, few people were really educated and even nobles and knights often could not read or write. So, the clergy were the ones scribing and storing knowledge, etc. Schools were to be found mainly attached to cathedrals and aimed at training up the next generation of clergymen. In fact, most education during this time was the responsibility of the clergy.