The Role of the Wizard, or "How Come Billy Gets to Create a Demiplane?"

[ProfessorCirno]

RE: Harry Potter (and nothing else because, quite frankly, I'm really digging the discussion going on and don't want to jump down into it ;p)

I have admittingly never read the books. I've only seen the first two movies, in fact, and only barely the second one which I don't remember that well. But the first one I found interesting because of something to point out:

Most of the problems are not solved by magic.

The final series of conflicts are really somewhat of a classic hero's tale, in a lot of aspects. They need to sneak in, there's a dangerous guardian they need to get past by some means (not neccisarily through combat!), a horrible trap that requires a measure of knowledge to get past (the plant), a riddle that requires wit and cunning (the chessboard), a test of the person's physical ability (the flying part), and of course, the final test of love, or friendship, or heart, or courage, or what have you.

And for the most part, none of that is solved through casting a spell, save for sneaking past a rather large dog.

I mentioned the two archtypes wizards tend to take, but I missed one that's pretty important, and I think it's seen at least a bit in Ron in the final series of conflicts: the Trickster. The Trickster does indeed tend to be magical, though mroe aligned with the bard, or the illusionist, or beguiler (to use a 3e-ism) then that of the wizard. See, Ron doesn't have brute magical strength. But he gets by with cunning. The chess battle was his moment to shine, and it wasn't through just magicking up the place, but by using tactics and (I know I've used this word a million times now) cunning.

So looking at it, we have the wise sage (not so old) in Hermoine, the cunning hero in Ron, and naturally the courageous protagonist in Harry.

Now as I said, I've not read the books, nor do I really know about anything that happens after book 1, so for all I know starting in book 2 it's just all magic all the time

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Oh yes, real quick, RE: Jedi.

You want power glut? In the first three movies Jedi could sense things and lift stuff - typically relatively small things, as Yoda lifting the X-Wing was a big deal. Vader had his force choke, and the Emperor had his lightning. And the force choke and lightning were sort of signature moves, not something everyone and their dad had. Of course, the good guys - even those who were mostly bad but were just redeemed - came back as ghosts to serve as mentors and guides to others. As far as I know Luke's flying wasn't linked to the force at all - Obi Wan telling him to trust his instincts weren't about Space Magic, it was him entering a psuedo-zen state and to let his natural ability take over.

Flash forward a bit and now you have jedi who single handedly rip through entire stormtrooper battalions, pulling down massive starships, and everyone and their dad farts out force lightning

It's interesting, because jedi were originally just sorta Space Monks. Their powers were vague and mostly undefined, and they were...well, like Han calls them, they were a kooky ancient religion. Now they seem to be some sort of Space Superman with amazing powers nobody else can reach.

 

[Votan]

The railroad doesn't stay a railroad when the wizard can fly, teleport, or just completely disintegrate the rails.

I still think most of this was due to an attempt to remove the weaknesses of various spells; which then led to this loss. In 1E, Fly is a 3rd level spell with no higher level alternatives. If it is dispelled the magic user falls. Teleport has a risk of instant death, even under the safest of circumstances.

A 9th level magic user has precisely 13 spells (many fewer than would happen in later editions). 4 first, 3 2nd, 3 3rd, 2 4th and 1 5th. This is about the time that the magic user can actually start using spells with gusto (before that they need to be carefully hoarded). A caster who uses a lot of spells is terribly vulnerable to surprise.

Rope trick lasts 20 min per level (and extension 2 is a 5th level spell that makes it last 30 minutes per level). Spending 8 hours in the rope trick space is an option for Archmagi alone (and remember the time to memorize spells plus the longer rest time before memorizing high level spells).

That is the same level a Fighter gets a small army of soldier (who, themselves, exert narrative power).

But these are removed with time while, the magic users gets a lot more spells and many of them become a lot better. The hazards of casting magic are reduced (fly ends in feather fall in 3E, for example) -- in 1E dispel magic is a very effective trick against a flying magic user. There are no improved invisibility spells so a flying and invisible 9th level magic user needed a bunch of spells memorized in order to pull the trick off; I rarely saw it.

Finally, I think the idea that scrolls are commonly bought and traded gives the magic user the ability to pick a lot of utility spells without major impact on the game.

So I am unconvinced that this was a consistent issue with the older versions of the game (although it could have been depending on how individual groups actually played the game).

I a lot of ways, 4E was merely the radical reversal of a trend of slow power creep.

 

[Neonchameleon]

It is also, IMO, absolutely abyssmal design in terms of suspension of disbelief and maintenance of archetypes. Anybody can cast spells, for balance reasons?No thank you, that's not part of the fantasy worlds I want, nor part of D&D's universe as I accept it as legimately being. And if 4E cannot create the worlds I want, nor offer believable archetypes, then there's little point to the game as a fantasy construction kit, because it's turned itself into an anachronism.

You're arguing against a strawman here. Anyone can cast rituals - with the Ritual Casting feat. i.e. training in the more ceremonial forms of magic. Not everyone takes Ritual Casting - there's an opportunity cost and rituals cost components. But it's quite possible in 4e to be a fighter who can cast spells out of combat. Or a fighter who can't. (As a rule, most NPCs can't).

The ability to cast plot-altering magic is linked to your character class but not bound to it. All (pre-essentials) Wizards are ritual casters. So are Invokers, Clerics, and Bards (and a handful of others). If fighters or rogues want to be they need to spend the feat. Also rituals cost cash resources to cast as well as obtain meaning many don't use them.

More than that; there should be problems that can't be solved by magical means. Again, they should be limited, but it seems to me one problem is the idea that there should be a magical solution for everything.

Unless you're using the Bigger Hammer approach (anti-magic fields), there's very little that smart magical support can't help with.

IMO, magic in D&D is meant to be more like Harry Potter. Magic users are supposed to be elites who potentially have the power to rule all muggle-borns who would be considered non-magic users in D&D terms.

D&D never actually says taht on the tin. Which is a near-crippling problem in some ways. The classes are meant to be roughly balanced.

My question is: How do you have *Magic* without giving one class/archetype more narrative control than another? (Game design wise; your DM can probably handle this)

Drawbacks are the obvious one to limit this. 4e makes its narrative magic (rituals) cost cash to cast meaning it's used a whole lot less than in 3e.

Hey ProfessorCrino! What if I played a level 15 wizard and wanted to build my own super cool keep? How would I go about doing so? Could I do it faster then my buddy the level 15 fighter? Could I use magic to do it faster and better then the Fighter could? If so, could you list all the spells I could use?

I think this has been answered. Other than brute strength (hire four more guys if that's a worry - unskilled labour is cheap) and ability to chop down trees fast (rather than wear high heels) there is nothing that the fighter brings to the table by virtue of being a fighter. (Or by being level 15 unless followers come as standard or you're playing 4e). Which means that if the wizard just had one spell with the ability to clean lichen off rocks fast (prestadigitatation) he'd be better than the fighter. As things stand, IIRC by 9th level he can create most of the basic materials for the keep from thin air (Wall of Stone), and then sculpt them (Fabricate, Sculpt Stone). If he's willing to spend XP, he can then throw in Permanency for certain magical effects (only cantrips at ninth level - by fifteenth he can ptu in his own doors, his private sanctum, symbols, etc.). All this in addition to everything the fighter can do while being many levels lower.

Oh, the bard's singing in my 3e games is normally Perform (Oratory) instead and on one occasion has been Perform (dance) - he looked so spectacularly good and flashy in combat that his allies were all encouraged (swashbuckler). Also if playing low magic, remember that in a pinch 3.X bards can heal.

Edit: Yes, I agree that the removal of drawbacks went a long way to unleashing and unbalancing the wizard.

 

[FireLance]

More than that; there should be problems that can't be solved by magical means. Again, they should be limited, but it seems to me one problem is the idea that there should be a magical solution for everything.

The unfortunate asymmetry is, a magic-using PC can still solve problems through non-magical means. (See the Harry Potter examples cited upthread.) However, the reverse is not true, barring magic items or somehow leveraging on a magic-using ally or servant.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Anyone can cast rituals - with the Ritual Casting feat. i.e. training in the more ceremonial forms of magic. Not everyone takes Ritual Casting - there's an opportunity cost and rituals cost components. But it's quite possible in 4e to be a fighter who can cast spells out of combat. Or a fighter who can't. (As a rule, most NPCs can't).

The ability to cast plot-altering magic is linked to your character class but not bound to it. All (pre-essentials) Wizards are ritual casters. So are Invokers, Clerics, and Bards (and a handful of others). If fighters or rogues want to be they need to spend the feat. Also rituals cost cash resources to cast as well as obtain meaning many don't use them.

True, of course. At least, my memory of reading the first round of 4e core books would indicate so.

But... it strikes me as a kludge. And a particularly glaring, ugly one, at that.* All ritual casting, for anyone at all, at the cost of *one* feat?

Better a (long!) chain of feats, or whatever else, IMO. If you're going to set it up outside of class ability land in the first place.


* The presence of a lot of these, among other things, led me to promptly turn around and move in the other direction from the latest edition.

Hm. So, 4.5 ("Essentials", if you prefer) changed some of this? How so?

Drawbacks are the obvious one to limit this. 4e makes its narrative magic (rituals) cost cash to cast meaning it's used a whole lot less than in 3e.

Yes, that's another way to go. Personally, both would be better still. A purchasing price and a usage price. Something other than money in the latter case, preferably. But that part is very much a matter of taste, not better vs. worse design, per se. Or not necessarily, at least.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

To be fair, ritual magic also generally requires skill.

You have some easy or binary rituals that don't take your skill in nature, arcane, or religion into account, but most do, which somewhat helps ensure that the sort of "ritual caster" classes, who generally have the stats and skills you want, tend to be better at it.

Rituals are a fantastic idea, I think, for any edition, even if you do limit them even more. Really big magic should, I think, be something that's done with a big circle of magic etched into the ground and a drawn out ritual and process.

 

[rounser]

You're arguing against a strawman here. Anyone can cast rituals - with the Ritual Casting feat. i.e. training in the more ceremonial forms of magic. Not everyone takes Ritual Casting - there's an opportunity cost and rituals cost components. But it's quite possible in 4e to be a fighter who can cast spells out of combat. Or a fighter who can't. (As a rule, most NPCs can't).

Which still makes no sense in terms of archetype. Why have classes at all if you're going to pull stunts like this? I'm sorry, but if this is supposed to be D&D then IMO this design decision is thematically completely out to lunch, and worthy of chucking out the whole game over. It's just that wrong for the D&D universe IMO.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Rather thats a degree of potential narrative control, or AKA "Making-Things-Potentially-Happeness" that casters have IF they are allowed it, yes. And IMO there is nothing wrong with that. Obviously of course, you may or may not have a serious problem with this.

Yes and no. Presuming that the DM is playing by the rules, the caster classes really can control the narrative to a degree that non-caster classes can't. Even something as simple as stat-buffs can have a very large impact. You can go from being a social leper to the life of the party with a spell or two in any edition.

The fighter is stuck being whatever he started out as at 1st level.

Oh yes, real quick, RE: Jedi.

You want power glut? In the first three movies Jedi could sense things and lift stuff - typically relatively small things, as Yoda lifting the X-Wing was a big deal. Vader had his force choke, and the Emperor had his lightning. And the force choke and lightning were sort of signature moves, not something everyone and their dad had. Of course, the good guys - even those who were mostly bad but were just redeemed - came back as ghosts to serve as mentors and guides to others. As far as I know Luke's flying wasn't linked to the force at all - Obi Wan telling him to trust his instincts weren't about Space Magic, it was him entering a psuedo-zen state and to let his natural ability take over.

Flash forward a bit and now you have jedi who single handedly rip through entire stormtrooper battalions, pulling down massive starships, and everyone and their dad farts out force lightning

It's interesting, because jedi were originally just sorta Space Monks. Their powers were vague and mostly undefined, and they were...well, like Han calls them, they were a kooky ancient religion. Now they seem to be some sort of Space Superman with amazing powers nobody else can reach.

This happens in pretty much anything though. The sequels always have to be bigger, badder, bolder. It's just the nature of the beast.

 

[Bluenose]

True, of course. At least, my memory of reading the first round of 4e core books would indicate so.

But... it strikes me as a kludge. And a particularly glaring, ugly one, at that.* All ritual casting, for anyone at all, at the cost of *one* feat?

Better a (long!) chain of feats, or whatever else, IMO. If you're going to set it up outside of class ability land in the first place.

Well, in theory. Assuming you have training in Arcana/Religion/Nature/Heal. And have spent money to learn the ritual, and have your ritual book available, and have the necessary components to perform the ritual (money, mostly because it's easy to keep track of). If all those things are true, you can have a character who can attempt any ritual, provided they can make a skill check.

* The presence of a lot of these, among other things, led me to promptly turn around and move in the other direction from the latest edition.

Hm. So, 4.5 ("Essentials", if you prefer) changed some of this? How so?

No mention of rituals in Essentials at all, as far as I've seen.