The Role of the Wizard, or "How Come Billy Gets to Create a Demiplane?"

[Bluenose]

The real problem is that as you said, the wizard isn't really based on any classical archtype. The origin of the D&D wizard is Chainmail, there they were basically human equivalents of catapults and ballistae with their fireballs and lightning bolts. This is what the wizard was based on in the orginal rules, with a spell list filling out other levels. When that spell list got developed, that's when they got all the deus ex machina powers, and the open-ended nature of magic in the compounded the problem as new spells got added into the game. Not that it was seen or intended as imbalanced in the first place:

Actually it's arguable that the wizard is based on classical archetypes. Merlin, and Koschei, and Circe, and a lot of others. The problem is that the wizard is based on all of them without being limited to being like just one, or in what is for the wizard the worst case switching which one they want to be like from day to day. Meanwhile most other classes get to pick one archetype and stick to it forever.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

[MENTION=49017]Bluenose[/MENTION]
Dig your avatar.

As far as "solutions" of giving martial classes more magic-that is one thing I brought up in the other thread. Still as far as supernatural "martial stunts"-I dont know what you would give them that would actually bring them up to par with what wizards or cleric do. THE BEST THING I could offer is-Look at a Jedi/Sith.

They have some monumental powers, and are essentially Magical Warriors. They can influence (and in the case of the Sith totally Control) entire battles of THOUSANDS or even several hundred-thousand individuals with Battle Meditation/Coordination and even wipe out ENTIRE ARMADAS of ships as Darth Sidious did with conjured Force Storms....but only at the highest levels.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_lightning#Force_Storm
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Telekinesis

And dont forget Telekinesis, Vader was able to Force Choke a guy by seeing him on a view screen-while he was on ANOTHER space ship. Actually, you might even say that Wizards basically are like Jedi/Sith accomplished in the highest arts of The Force (AKA Magic).

Mass mind control?
Elemental Evocation?
Manipulation of things at vast distances?
Precognition/Divination? ("I sense a disturbance...")
Take away the lightsabers and they basically become Wizards. As a matter of fact, not all of them focused on being talented Lightsaber Duelists, some of them focused entirely on mastering Force Powers.

In fact, D&D wizards might have more in common with Star Wars most powerful Force Sensitives than you think. I can definitely tell you an elite Force Sensitive has more "narrative control" over his life than any random fool with a blaster pistol-not that those characters cant be Heroes.

Of course, if the martial classes become like Jedi/Sith, then mundane fighters become an NPC class. But the real question is-if Martial Classes become this magical how are they different from just "wizards who can use swords"? How differentiate between the two of them? And as far as "balance" doesnt this tip things in the favor of the Magical Warriors if only because if they either run out of magic, or an enemy is immune, or their magic negated they can fall back on swordsmanship?

Actually it's arguable that the wizard is based on classical archetypes. Merlin, and Koschei, and Circe, and a lot of others. The problem is that the wizard is based on all of them without being limited to being like just one, or in what is for the wizard the worst case switching which one they want to be like from day to day. Meanwhile most other classes get to pick one archetype and stick to it forever.

And so it begs the question-not wizards in general, but the "D&D" wizard. Is this how they are supposed to be?
"Balanced" or not, is this what the original creators of the game intended? (regardless of what individuals may actually want)

The question is, what makes Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons? If thats the way D&D Wizards (or casters in general) are and you change them, then are they still D&D Wizards/Casters? Is the game STILL D&D if the D&D Wizards/Casters and how they compare to other classes changes?

Hypothetically then, if this is how they intended to play then making any changes to them makes the game into a different game, or at least a drastically different style. Certainly you are free to houserule as you please to shape any edition to your liking-but it may be easier for you to play a different edition or simply play a different game than trying to make these changes on your own.

What I find odd, is that AFAIK I have never seen someone raise this issue as Cirno has. At least in recent memory, why does it come up now anyway? I'm just curious as all.

 

[Aus_Snow]

And so it begs the question-not wizards in general, but the "D&D" wizard. Is this how they are supposed to be?
"Balanced" or not, is this what the original creators of the game intended? (regardless of what individuals may actually want)

That is a valid question, of course. Equally valid might be something along the lines of, "Did the creators manage to get it right, to match the mechanics to the idea?" and/or, "Is the 3e version that is front and centre in the OP(s) 'worse' than earlier ones, in terms of the alleged aspects?"

The question is, what makes Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons? If thats the way D&D Wizards (or casters in general) are and you change them, then are they still D&D Wizards/Casters? Is the game STILL D&D if the D&D Wizards/Casters and how they compare to other classes changes?

Once more, quite valid. And again, you could equally ask, "Has house ruling not been a fundamental and vital part of D&D, right from the very start?"

To which I would have to reply, "Of course it has." Because, well, it has.

What I find odd, is that AFAIK I have never seen someone raise this issue as Cirno has. At least in recent memory, why does it come up now?

Wow.

Seriously?!

I think this must be the first time I've encountered a player of D&D who hasn't come across this issue, even if just in discussions/arguments.

No, really.

 

[Bluenose]

Good questions.

And so it begs the question-not wizards in general, but the "D&D" wizard. Is this how they are supposed to be?
"Balanced" or not, is this what the original creators of the game intended? (regardless of what individuals may actually want)

The 1st edition PHB gave the Magic-User 19 1st level spells, and the Illusionist added a few more unique ones. Less were available at higher levels. Then you had a strict limit on how many you could ever learn from a particular level, and it wasn't trivial to raise that limit. Some of the most useful and versatile ones didn't even exist. I'd suggest the evidence is that MUs weren't expected to have a magical solution for nearly any problems.

The question is, what makes Dungeons & Dragons, Dungeons & Dragons? If thats the way D&D Wizards (or casters in general) are and you change them, then are they still D&D Wizards/Casters? Is the game STILL D&D if the D&D Wizards/Casters and how they compare to other classes changes?

Other classes have had to change (Bards, most notably, every edition). Why shouldn't wizards?

 

[FireLance]

The wizard has mechanics to support their narrative control, the fighter doesn't; the best the fighter can do is roleplay their narrative control, which the wizard can also do. The wizard just has mechanics backing them up.

Yes! This, to me, is the crux of the issue.

Cirno stated that 4E was an example of a system that actually had a solution for that problem. That solution, of course, is that all those spells that were narrative tools were separated from class (and even archetype). Everyone has (almost) equal access to rituals. If the player of a Fighter wanted to cast rituals, there's nothing stopping that player. Is that an edition war thing? No. It's simply a method by which a perceived problem was solved.

Apart from this approach, which may be unpalatable to some, Martial Power 2 introduces the concept of martial practices, which are effectively rituals given martial flavor and would hence enable martial characters to accomplish tasks in a manner that is narratively non-magical.

In my view, however, the best way to deal with this issue may require a fundamental change in how we organize information in an RPG. Instead of (or perhaps in addition to) the traditional approach of ability lists - page after page of spells, class abilities, skills and powers - the game might have lists of common or typical non-combat challenges, and what abilities could be used to overcome them. For example, getting past a locked door might list the knock spell/ritual, the Pick Locks/Thievery skill, breaking down the door (Strength check), etc. Finding out facts could list various divination rituals and a skill challenge involving appropriate knowledge and information-gathering skills. This would provide the DM with the mechanical support to give non-spellcasting characters narrative control.

That said, I am fairly sure that there will still be goals and objectives that cannot plausibly be attained by purely non-magical means. DMs should be advised to minimize the use of such challenges in a more scripted campaign.

 

[Bluenose]

That said, I am fairly sure that there will still be goals and objectives that cannot plausibly be attained by purely non-magical means. DMs should be advised to minimize the use of such challenges in a more scripted campaign.

More than that; there should be problems that can't be solved by magical means. Again, they should be limited, but it seems to me one problem is the idea that there should be a magical solution for everything.

 

[Alexander123]

IMO, magic in D&D is meant to be more like Harry Potter. Magic users are supposed to be elites who potentially have the power to rule all muggle-borns who would be considered non-magic users in D&D terms. They are superior, hence the conflict between Harry Potter and Voldemort. Now it might be possible to have some interesting role-playing with non-magic users but in terms of power magic users are supposed to be more powerful than non magic users and this doesn't bother me. I have had some of the most fun playing an all caster party.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Wow.

Seriously?!

I think this must be the first time I've encountered a player of D&D who hasn't come across this issue, even if just in discussions/arguments.

No, really.

Its not that I've never heard people bring up that casters can be powerful or that there are plenty of ways to break spells/rules with combos like Chaos Shuffle or any number of builds/combos...(noncasters included)

CoDzilla, Cheater of Mystara, Pun-Pun, Wish and the Word, Nasty Gentleman, Item Dupes, Explosive Rune collecting, Invulnerability builds (Hannibal Lector the Illithid Savant, Twice Betrayer of Shar, etc), Tleilaxu’s Mind Switch tactica, Component Free Wishing, Spell Level Jacking, Mercantile Leaders, Transformation Field limitless spell outputs, Attack of the Clones, Psionic Time-Copies, H.I.V.E., Ice Sculpture God, Emaciated Spawn Reincarntation, Nanobots, Hyper-Evolved Undead, the Teflemmar multipouncer, Economy Commander, Hulking Moon Hurler, Odytoboman’s Infinite Stuff, Free Templates (e.g. Effigy, Lycanthropy, Tauric, etc abuse), Tainted Spellcasting, The Synchronicity Shuffle, Omniscificers, Lord of Procrastination’s Dirty Tricks, The Perpetual Damage Machine, Psly’s Dirty Damage Combo, Unfettered Heroism Wand Surge abuse, Festering Strength, The Beast, Shambling Mound Electroshock Therapy, Dragonwrought Kobold Oldies, Bestow Power Fission, Consumptive Field, Diplomancers....just to name too many.

But Cirno, it feels different him and this thread.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I have had some of the most fun playing an all caster party.

Well, yes.

As for elites and "muggles" (ugh), I'd say the game one might be looking for there is Ars Magica. At least, that is the game where that scenario is "done right". If you happen to find their take on it agreeable.

D&D promises (or, to some, appears to promise) something else entirely. So, the question would be, "Did they get it right?"

Cirno, it feels different him and this thread.

How so? Not disagreeing, necessarily. Just curious.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

IMO, magic in D&D is meant to be more like Harry Potter. Magic users are supposed to be elites who potentially have the power to rule all muggle-borns who would be considered non-magic users in D&D terms. They are superior, hence the conflict between Harry Potter and Voldemort. Now it might be possible to have some interesting role-playing with non-magic users but in terms of power magic users are supposed to be more powerful than non magic users and this doesn't bother me. I have had some of the most fun playing an all caster party.

To be honest. Just living in a world where there are magic users and you are not...that could be scary as fck. See...people sometimes go CRAZY. Sometimes people get all depressed or sad-aloney. Read Elder Evils and see how ONE little Elven Wizard (18th level) thought NOBODY cared about them. They went off the deep end. Except, a Wizard going crazy is very different. Any guy could go on a spree with a gun/Xbow or commit a small act of terrorism.

This elven Wizard cast Apocalypse From The Sky.

10+ mile radius nukage centered on self, as they savor sweet oblivion, as well as taking all those "fools" with them as sacrifices so their new god can awaken to destroy all the world.

Plus? The spell requires an artifact of a good deity as a spell component, and guess what? The wiz hired the PCs to get it for them in the first place in that Scenario/adventure. Nice job Heroes.

Yeah.

Scary as fck. I'd rather deal with a rogue who became Ted Bundy. Plus, wizards CREATE magical beasts, "Things that should not be". A wizard invented the Chuul, who lived long after he failed to take over the world. Add to magical beasts, undead, and constructs. OH! And even if a Wizard is sane, if you're a believer that power corrupts...

I mean, who could resist the temptation to Scry on random people and use the Messege spell through it just to mindscrew "OOooOOooOH I'M GHOOooOOST!" or "I'm a Demon. And I already ate your SOUL. " PLUS-think of all the subtle ways of Gaslighting someone you dont like with magic. Total mindscrew.

On a side note, I like the "Magic is BAD" angle of Cthulhu. Its something man CAN DO-but was never meant to/should never do. The idea that warping reality, also warps your mind...slowly making you insane...thats cool.

Thats one of the things that balances magic in Call of Cthulhu, sanity is a very limited resource thats not easily recoverable. Just acquiring spells saps sanity, and the more Mythos Knowledge you have, the lower the cap on how much sanity you're even allowed.