D&D General The senseless achitecture in most official products

[DND_Reborn]

Here is my gnoll lair:

I've used it a couple of times with different groups and it plays pretty well.

I try to avoid needless passages in "constructed" dungeons unless they serve a defensive purpose. Many official products are okay, but some are pretty bad LOL!

 

[Warpiglet]

I recently completed a 3D representation of a 6’ x 4’ keep with one inch is five feet.

(I have a foam cutter...and have completed many many wall section). But to the main point:

laying it all out made me see some absurdities more clearly. Rooms are reasonable sizes.

I did not think about chamber pots or pit toilets.

in truth, I doubt the players will ask. If they do, I may have to come up with some explanation. It’s a keep...would they have a pit toilet at ground level or at some higher level?

damn. Wish I would not have even thought of it!

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Aerial picture? Because that looks cool!

 

[Warpiglet]

Aerial picture? Because that looks cool!

Thanks kindly! Here is an aerial shot with a troll and bearded devil in the middle to show scale

 

[DND_Reborn]

Thanks kindly! Here is an aerial shot with a troll and bearded devil in the middle to show scale

Very nice @Warpiglet , I'm sure you put a lot of work into it.

 

[Warpiglet]

Very nice @Warpiglet , I'm sure you put a lot of work into it.

Thanks. Yes. It has been a lot of time invested. My hope is that with time we will use these to make rooms on the fly and play more...

 

[Warpiglet]

Found this...

inwill assume these too are
Up high and maybe out of play in my present scenario

A Few Words about Castle Toilets by James M Deem

A look at some interesting and unusual castle toilets | A story by Author James M Deem | Harlech Castle | Conisbrough Castle | Chinon Castle | St. Andrews Castle | Conwy Castle | Orford Castle

jamesmdeem.com

 

[generic]

I have found that the relative sense or nonsense factor of a dungeon's design is dependent on its purpose. For example, a dungeon that is lived in is not going to look like a long, snaking sewer dungeon, or a dungeon hollowed out by natural waterflow. When designing dungeons, I tend to take the following principles into account:

1. Who made the dungeon?: The design of the dungeon, in terms of symmetry, ease of navigation, and incorporation of latrines, depends on who built the original dungeon, and who now inhabits it. In a necropolis, one would expect that there would be a lack of latrines and everyday rooms. The density of rooms in the necropolis is likely influenced by religion, and, perhaps, respect for the dead. One might expect snaking passageways lined with small tombs in one necropolis, and a spare few chambers in a pyramid or other honorary necropolis (not including the outer city, external tombs, or the tombs where slaves, children, animals, and other people/things might be held in sacred burial. Conversely, in a labyrinth, one might expect to find a luxuriant misuse of space, with long, well-constructed hallways. In a temple, there will be spaces carved out (or built) for beds, latrines, and common rooms, as well as chapels, prayer cells, monastery dining halls, or whatever else the religious order might need. The construction of the dungeon really does depend on its creators, and who inhabits it now. If Goblins take over the necropolis mentioned above, perhaps they would clear out certain tombs, block off others, and carve out little pits for latrines, using certain areas and stretches of tomb as living space. If the Goblins found a set of tombs that were separated by little more than a wall of brick, they might knock the bricks out, and create a hall for the Goblin King. The evolution of the dungeon, also part of its design, should be, IMHO, natural.

2. Water and food: Use these guidelines only if necessary. If the dungeon is populated entirely by Undead, and was designed to be, you would, obviously, ignore this. Otherwise, you need to take into account where water and food can be found. In a building, there need not be farms or wells, but there should be a place where imported goods are kept, and, perhaps, a brewery where the unclean village water can be brewed into the safer, and more tasty, weak bread beer. If the inhabitants of the dungeon are self-sufficient, include space for animal pens, gardens, or whatever else. If the need arises, include other inhabitants which are preyed upon. In underground areas, natural springs, deep wells, and underground rivers tend to work well for water sources. If a dungeon was designed to be a necropolis, but is now inhabited, you can solve the obvious problem in terms of water access through the classic gimmick (underground river running through the necropolis), or, you could have Goblins running water from a nearby lake down into the dungeon. Maybe, the Goblins have invented a simple aqueduct to transport water. Consider the infrastructure.

3. Ecology: It varies, it varies, oh so much.

 

[Celebrim]

Here is my gnoll lair:

View attachment 117082

I've used it a couple of times with different groups and it plays pretty well.

For me that's an example of "good enough". You don't need to go for perfect realism all the time. You just need to be plausible enough, and that cavern hits most of the important points such that although it's pretty darn unlikely, it is plausible enough that I would believe it could occur in the real world.

It gets one thing exactly right, and that's that cave passages cut along a single plane look almost exactly like maps of waterways. The map you have is the map of a drainage system with some extra complexity that comes from being in a 3D space and not just one the surface of the land.

The one thing that it gets wrong is something that is worthwhile overlooking, and that's that you almost never see a cavern map that is a drainage system which branches that much over that short of a distance, for the same reason that on the surface you almost never see streams and brooks that branch that much over that short of a distance. You can find a cavern complex that is small and branched, but those caves are almost never the result of drainage systems, but are usually fracture systems with water seeping along cracks in the crust. However, this is something that I think is fully justified for gameplay purposes, for the same reason that most real world buildings are symmetrical, but dungeons should never be symmetrical and should be drawn exclusively from realistic and plausible architecture that isn't, or otherwise should find ways to break symmetry (like one wing collapsed).

 

[Myrhdraak]

Inspired by @Kris thread about him trying out the rolled up random dungeon i want to start a discussion about the annoyance that many official products cause in me about the seemingly totally senseless architectural features of the dungeon maps.

With some absolutely marvelous exceptions so many dungeon maps presented in official products, be it PnP or also many computer games, have floor maps which commonly lack one thing: Any connection to realism purpose or aestethic.

A building or structure should be desigend to serve a purpose, even a mine has some regularity in it, although here you can argue that the diggers followed some ore vein. But how is it that every temple floor plan looks like it is dedicated to the gods of chaos?

I mean:

- Would even orcs like to inhabit those strange zig zag corridors?

- Is a normal building with one or two quirks so boring?

- Or is it so difficult to build some quirk into a normal building like a secret tunnel or chamber or a trapdoor?


I often rework or replace official maps, if they do not make sense to me.
And by that i mean sense in purpose, inhabitants and structure of a given dungeon map.

It is one of the things i really like when DMing PnP, that i can rectify the mad labyrinths.

If it would make sense like a madmans dungeon e.g. Undermountain then ok, and every now and then there might be another explanation to a highly unlinear structure, but it seems to be the rule and not the exception.

What are your opinions on that?

Could you share some pictures on maps that you have reworked (as well as the original map) and point out the changes you did and why. Would be interesting to look at.