The Shadowcaster -weak?

[Cadfan]

Except that spell selection isn't all the shadowcaster has.

What's the tricksy wizard's hide check? Move silently check? Spot check? What bonuses is he getting from his armor? His buckler? Do his spells have material components? Somatic components? Verbal components? Are his hit points as high? How's his fort save? Not to mention that shadow magic mysteries tend to be on a 1 for 1 level superior to comparable spells (dancing shadows grants actual concealment, not fake concealment like displacement, killing shadows is d8 instead of d6, etc). Or that the shadowcaster is largely emancipated from issues like casting defensively, or having his spells countered or dispelled, and gets a permanent, better form of the darkvision spell.

You can't just consider offense. Defense is a factor. If all we considered was offense, of course the glass cannon classes would always win.

 

[jcfiala]

I remember enjoying the flavor of the shadowcaster at the time, but I really didn't take a hard look at the mechanics then. I had another look last night, and it seems to me that there's a problem there with power, alright.

A fifth level Shadowcaster has five fundimentals, two level 1 mysteries, two level 2 mysteries, and 1 level 3 mystery, or can have more lower-level mysteries at the cost of the higher ones. Although the fundies can be cast 3/day, each of these mysteries are one each.

On the other hand, a wizard at 5th level has 4 first level spells, 2 second, and 1 third, and that's assuming the minimum INT 13. Assuming at least an INT 16 (not unreasonable, I think), that's 4 first, 3 second, 2 third... and then there's specializing, which brings it to 5/4/3.

Admittedly, a shadowcaster could throw two or three fundies into the 2d4 subdual trick, but that's not as good as our wizard just studying five copies of Magic Missile, which at 5th is now a 3d4+3 effect that could even be broken up between targets.

It seems to me that either each mystery needs to be two or three times more powerful than a spell of the same level, or our poor Shadowcaster should have his mysteries/day doubled or trebled.

 

[lukelightning]

Except that spell selection isn't all the shadowcaster has.

What's the tricksy wizard's hide check? Move silently check? Spot check?

Greater invisibility + fly takes care of hiding and moving silently. I'm sure there is a low-level spell that adds a bonus to spot.

Or be a Shadowcraft Mage from Races of Stone.

I should be clear that I like the shadowcaster and think they can be a useful addition to a party (especially one that already has a wizard).

 

[GVDammerung]

The Shadowcaster (as a PC) is a class for which a DM needs to design specific adventures, something a lot of people seem to no longer do much, preferring “off the rack” adventures from Dungeon, Goodman or Necromancer Games etc. In an “off the rack” adventure, the Shadowcaster tends to be weak, especially in a small party where versatility counts for more. If you do your own adventures, the flavor of the Shadowcaster is so strong that making sure the adventure works for Shadowcaster PCs is acceptable.

When designing niche PC classes, as someone noted, they should be made powerful enough to hold their own in a 4-5 character party, when compared to the PH base classes. This way, they will better function in “off the rack” adventures, that seem to be the fashion, as those are designed (mostly) with the PH base classes in mind.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Except that spell selection isn't all the shadowcaster has.

What's the tricksy wizard's hide check? Move silently check?

Prety good with the right spells. Also, compare this to an arcane trickster. The AC is generally going to be better.

Spot check?

What bonuses is he getting from his armor?

1 less really. A +x mithril chain shirt of twilight (0% ASF) vs whatever the shadiowcaster is wearing.

His buckler?

The same really. Mithril bucklers have a 0% ASF chance.

Do his spells have material components?

Yes. Most of the material components are a non issue. The ones with serious costs are much better than a mystery.

Somatic components? Verbal components?

Are his hit points as high?

I'd guess the same. The shadowcaster averages 1 better. However, while the shadowcaster has to have both intelligence AND charisma thanks to the needless MAD, the wizard can have intelligence AND con. Overall, its a wash, if not leaning towards the wizard.


Not to mention that shadow magic mysteries tend to be on a 1 for 1 level superior to comparable spells (dancing shadows grants actual concealment, not fake concealment like displacement, killing shadows is d8 instead of d6, etc).

Or that the shadowcaster is largely emancipated from issues like casting defensively,

Casting defensively is a non issue for wizards after a certain point in their careers. The DC is 15+spell level. So max of 24. A +23 means you never fail to cast defensively. By the time the shadowcaster is able to cast meaningful mysteries as supernatural abilities (remember, they begin as spells), the wizard is easily able to cast defensively, using a cheap +concentration item to boost his check total even further.

or having his spells countered or dispelled,

In my experience, countering while casting happens relatively infrequently. Maybe it occurs more often in your games, in which case it would be more of an advantage.

and gets a permanent, better form of the darkvision spell.

He gets a free magic item. /shrug

You can't just consider offense. Defense is a factor. If all we considered was offense, of course the glass cannon classes would always win.

I have, and the wizard/rogue/arcane trickster still comes out ahead IMO. If there is a slight situational adantage, I dont think it makes up for the flexibility of picknig your spells on a daily basis. The loss of flexibility in daily mystery selection and MAD seriously hurts the shadowcaster.

 

[Wraith Form]

ehren37: So, you're saying you like the class?

LOL

 

[Mouseferatu]

I think the potential problem is the way I designed the class's advancement. At most levels, it's actually pretty comparable to the wizard in terms of total spells per day. The wizard has the benefit of bonus spells for Int, but the shadowcaster has a lot more fundamentals, and eventually gets the ability to cast them at will. Fundamentals aren't all that powerful, but are usually at least equal or superior to cantrips.

Unfortunately, there are a few specific levels where this is not the case. The shadowcaster falls behind, and then rapidly catches up upon gaining a new type of mystery, as the prior types gain extra uses per day. I thought it was a nifty mechanic--and I still like it conceptually--but maybe it doesn't play as well as I'd hoped.

I really do believe that, these two or three scattered levels aside, the shadowcaster does pretty well. But again, I'd like to hear about people's actual experiences, whether they support this or disprove it.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Ahh, thats it. I knew you had experience with the class, and were playing one. I personally dislike the "sit there and buff" aspect of the class, since its basically a low skill point aristocrat in terms of active abilities. What did you guys do to buff it up to be enjoyable?

The main problem with the marshal, as compared to the dragon shaman, is that the DS is just as good a "buffer," and can also wade in and take some truly significant actions on his own. The bard has lots of spells that aren't just good for buffing. But buffing is all the marshal has.

We wanted to do something to make the marshal truly effective as an active participant. We've raised the BAB to a fighter's, and raised the skill points to 6/level. Honestly, I think it's still a little weak, but I'm at least prepared to give it a shot and see how it goes.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The main problem with the marshal, as compared to the dragon shaman, is that the DS is just as good a "buffer," and can also wade in and take some truly significant actions on his own. The bard has lots of spells that aren't just good for buffing. But buffing is all the marshal has.

We wanted to do something to make the marshal truly effective as an active participant. We've raised the BAB to a fighter's, and raised the skill points to 6/level. Honestly, I think it's still a little weak, but I'm at least prepared to give it a shot and see how it goes.

I've had some success with buffed variant marshals. I still have never had a player who actually wanted to play a marshal, but in one game, a caster headed for a massively difficult ritual Spellcraft check is desperate to enlist the aid of a marshal NPC so he can buff up her Charisma and add it to his Spellcraft check--some of those auras are massively useful for hitting a hard skill check.

 

[Nalfeshnee]

well ive had tome of magic for abot three months now, and im playing a bariaur truenamer and another player had a shadowswyft binder/rogue (its a planescape campaign). when i first got the book both us thought the truenamer was useless. now that ive played with it and ive found ways to pump up the Truespeak skill (at level 6 his check is +20 - all legal and within his gp limit), so he is good enough at using repeat utterances

but the shadowcaster...ugh, i had enough faith in the truenamer to actually use him, thogh i cannot see how the shadowcaster is good (at least at low-mid levels - i can see it being 'quite' good at high levels, thoug hagain, nowhere as effective as a wizard/warlock/warmage/sorcerer). too few spells, the promise of good skills that never delivers... i just think it was a half thought class tha thas so much potential.

i think the shadow caster should have better stealth skills and perhaps more skill points and maybe sneak attack (1d6 every 5 levels or so) or something similar. i think the spells are ok the way they are, if anything to make it different from the other spellcasting classes. though as it is (and especially since our games tend to happen between levels 5 - 10) im convinced ts not even worth trying. perhaps ill try one as an NPC to use against the party and experiment with ways to use it, though for the time being id rather use a FRCS shadow mage