The Shadowcaster -weak?

The shadowcaster is weak

  • Strongly agree

    Votes: 27 14.8%
  • Agree

    Votes: 66 36.1%
  • In the middle/don't know

    Votes: 73 39.9%
  • Disagree

    Votes: 12 6.6%
  • Strongly disagree

    Votes: 5 2.7%

ehren37 said:
Its not intended to be rude. Some classes are weaker than others. The marshall, the samurai, etc are weaker classes, the cleric and druid are stronger classes. For me to imply that someone favors making classes at one end of the power scale shouldnt be taken as an insult.

1. If you don't understand or disagree with a moderator request, email them - don't discuss it further in the thread.

2. Say what you want about a class. But say it in a way that doesn't denigrate other posters. If you can't understand why your post was mean spirited just edit it anyway - it's no skin off your nose.

Happily Ari wasn't personally involved with the marshall, and is a good sort who isn't likely to take offence anyway. Nonetheless, I still would like you to edit that post if you wish to continue posting in this thread.

If you don't follow this, please feel free to email me for clarification.
 

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Not having looked indepth enough at the class, nor seen one in play, I would like to hear people's opinions on a little tidbit I read about the shadowcaster. Namely, the point someone made was that the wizard can do everything the shadowcaster can, even better.

If the wizard outperforms the shadowcaster in its own niche, then something is needed to bump up the shadowcaster.

Anyone have anything to say regarding this?
 

What mfundamental mysteries do you prefer, how do you use it?

Imho Arrow of Dusk is must be. It's something like magic missile.

Black Candle is another must be, because this is a sourse of darkness impossible to dispel and counterspell.

Caul of Shadows? it's good to have deflection bonus imposible to dispel, but
1. +2 to +4 deflection bonus means nothing if the enemy dispels the rest of my AC boosts.
2. I don't seen yet PC without ring of protection.

Umbral Hand? Any creative solutions?
 

Wraith Form said:
ehren37: So, you're saying you like the class?

LOL

Its not a terribly designed class, (its definately in the better half of non-core classes) its just on the weak side when compared to other options. Were I running a low magic/power game, I'd include it instead of a wizard or sorcerer as an option, since I feel its less powerful than those. Its not my favorite however, and I detailed why (MAD between Int and Cha for casting, low number of mysteries per day at various levels, etc). While I understand the background reasons for the transition from spell to supernatural ability of the mysteries, I think its a design decision that works against the class, and it wouldnt overpower it to have them using the mysteries as supernatural abilities from the start.

I feel the same way about the runecaster in Arcana Evolved... its a powered down magister with a few tricks (but not necessarily enough to compensate for what it loses), and a magister who prepared the right spells could do virtually everything the runecaster could do.
 
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I"m not trying to be harsh, and I haven't actually played the class, but after looking at the Shadowcaster closely I found it to be extremely limited and unsatisfying. I wrote a post on another thread here, but essentially it boiled down to the following limitations:

1. Multiple required ability scores leading to lower save DCs for mysteries, which dilutes their power
2. No way to increase number of known mysteries (which is already less than a sorcerer)
3. No way to increase number of mysteries per day (which is already less than any wizard)
4. Path structure which forces you to take potentially worthless mysteries in order to access the mysteries you actually want
5. Extremely limited selection of mysteries to choose from
6. Uses per day tied to mysteries known

In the end, you have a class which has very limited number of known mysteries, drawn from a very limited pool of available mysteries, who can cast them a very limited number of times per day. This is ostensibly counteracted by the mysteries being more powerful and versatile, but the multiple ability score requirement means that save DCs will be lower, reducing the power. In addition, the actual mysteries available only allow the shadowcaster the following: cold or subdual damage, concealment, limited battlefield control, limited senses augmentation/scrying. Finally, even though the shadowcaster knows, say, two of his most powerful mysteries, he can only use each one a single time per day. The shadowcaster is very limited in what his actions will be - he can't choose to use one of his most powerful mysteries twice in lieu of using his other - he can only use each once per day.

I found the combination of all of these limitations to be overly restrictive and they really put me off of the class. I'll likely not use it without some serious revisions.
 

What if we go the other way, and give Shadowcasters total access to the "spell lists" on their levels, a la Beguilers, War Mages, etc.? Would that unbalance the game, or just bring the Shadowcasters up to par?
 

I'm just at a loss with the class. I really like the concept and I think all the little abilities are nice but what does this thing have over something rocking mithril or custum made Shield and Mage Armor items? Not a whole lot, as far as I can tell. Also, another point not raised is that the Shadowcaster is one of those classes where you are married to for the character's life. No multiclassing, no prestige classing.
 

Fishbone said:
I'm just at a loss with the class...

Me too. I think the concept is great, and I really like the background, but I can't see actually enjoying playing the class in a campaign as it currently stands.

Particle Man's suggestion may be a good one. I really think the class needs more flexibility in some area - right now it doesn't really have flexibility in any area. It may even be a simple matter of not tying uses per day to mysteries known. It might be better if, at each class level you could A.) choose another mystery known, and B.) mysteries/day were tied to the total number of mysteries known for that level. So if you knew two 4th level mysteries (your highest level), you would have two daily uses of 4th level mysteries, chosen at the time of casting from those you know.
 

Alright, my final comments, then I'll probably bow out of the discussion.

I have only one gameplay experience to contribute. A group of my friends ran through a troll related one shot adventure posted on the wotc website, and used the PHBII and the Tome of Magic to create their characters, just to test them out. The shadowcaster was, I believe, level 12. It contributed well to the party in spite of being played by a less than expert player, particularly due to the level 5 wall mystery, and sight obscured (sorry, don't have my book here, don't recall exact names). The wall mystery is very solid, has no save, has a duration, has high damage, and blocks line of sight. Sight obscured is great if the target fails its save. I could easily see their view of it as being different, however, if their target had made its save. Other than that, the shadowcaster waltzed around enjoying his Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, and did not do a whole ton of stuff. The heroes were the Duskblade and the Monk with Decisive Strike.

Regarding Ehren37's comments: The various builds you suggested are solid, but of course have drawbacks. The Arcane Trickster, for example, requires less than useful feat prerequisites, and lowers your max spell level and your caster level. Yes, it contributes other things, but its not a wash. I had forgotten about Twilight armor. The only thing I can say regarding it is that I think publishing Twilight armor was a mistake on wotc's part. It gives armor to classes that previously did not have much reason to use it. I recognize that normal casters are freed from concentration checks eventually, but using no custom items, that level is approximately level 15 for a caster with a 14 constitution and skill focus concentrate. That's the level the caster can cast a 9th level spell and succeed at casting defensively while rolling a 1. The shadowcaster, at the same cost of one feat, can get Shadow Cast, which, the vast, vast majority of the time, negates the need for concentration checks while casting. This can be obtained at level 2 by use of a bonus feat.

When I review a class, I tend to think its ok if I can make at least one decent character out of it. I think I can do that with the shadowcaster. Its probably a little weaker than a tweaked out wizard, but to be honest, I've always felt that the primary spellcasters were overpowered. Maybe I feel more comfortable with the shadowcaster because I don't see the power of a primary spellcaster as appropriate for the game.

Finally, I don't diagnose the shadowcasters problems the same as everyone else does. Everyone seems to have a problem with the way the shadowcaster's mysteries known translate to mysteries per day, and the total number of mysteries a shadowcaster has per day. Personally, I think this is what makes the shadowcaster unique and interesting. If you took away this mechanic, you'd just have an alternate version of the beguiler. So, I'd like to make a change without altering the path system. What I'd do is, rather than complain about mysteries per day, I'd worry about GOOD mysteries per day. The path system forces you to choose mysteries you may not want if you intend to get past them to better options. For example, to get the very fun mystery Flicker, you need to go through the first level mystery that mimics the Command spell. At level 1, that's ok. But at level 14, being able to cast 3 supernatural Commands per day with a saving throw of 11 + cha is pretty weak. You're probably never going to use them at all.

Here's the change I would make.

"The DC for a mystery is equal to one half the caster level of the mystery user's casting class, plus the caster's charisma bonus, rounded down."

I would then alter Path Focus to no longer give a bonus to mystery DC, merely the bonus to caster level.

Now, apprentice level paths that were previously very, very weak (the one with Flicker, Umbral Mind) and initiate paths that were so so (basically anything that forces a save negates mystery on you) would now grow in power level as your character grows.

This would have the following effects.

First, at low levels, Shadow Hood would actually be a good choice. Right now no one even discusses it because after a few levels it becomes 100% useless. Making it worthwhile increases the shadowcaster's offensive options. It would still be weak, but its a fundamental, so that's ok.

Second, it would encourage taking multiple paths or unusual paths at low levels to pick up attack mysteries. Selecting Umbral Mind is kind of a weak option right now, because Mesmerizing Shade, while ok at low levels, becomes terrible at higher levels. With a scaling DC the ability to Daze a target as a supernatural ability is worthwhile even at very high levels. With the scaling DCs, I could see a player taking Mesmerizing Shade or the mystery that mimics Command purely for their own value, and not merely for a way to get past them to higher level mysteries within their paths. This would increase the combat spells per day available to a mystery user at lower levels, effectively increasing mysteries per day without changing the flavor and mechanics of the class to mimic a wizard.

Finally, at higher levels, the fact that mysteries like Mesmerizing Shade would be a viable combat option would lessen the need to desparately pursue attack mysteries. Taking Dark Reflections would be less mandatory, and players could loosen up and select options like Step into Shadow or Bolster or Dark Air and Water with less guilt at the loss of offensive power. This would encourage a larger variety of builds.

As of right now, when I say the shadowcaster is an ok class, I guess I'm really only referring to two possible builds. One is the one I listed above, and even it is a little slow at low levels, and the other is a touch attack based build. There are whole paths I would never even consider simply because they involve too much dead weight that cannot be dropped at high levels. Scaling DCs would ensure that this would no longer be a problem by making that dead weight useful, and wouldn't meaningfully impact the overall power level of the game, because even a scaled DC Command mystery is still just one round of Command.

And it really fits in well with the whole "Shadow magic is different and superior to normal magic" thing the flavor has in it. And with the way mysteries really aren't spells, they're something different that eventually matches supernatural powers.

Anyways, that's about all I have to say on the subject. Thanks for your time, Mouseferatu. I'll read replies, but probably won't comment much.
 

Cadfan said:
Here's the change I would make.

"The DC for a mystery is equal to one half the caster level of the mystery user's casting class, plus the caster's charisma bonus, rounded down."

I would then alter Path Focus to no longer give a bonus to mystery DC, merely the bonus to caster level.

Now, apprentice level paths that were previously very, very weak (the one with Flicker, Umbral Mind) and initiate paths that were so so (basically anything that forces a save negates mystery on you) would now grow in power level as your character grows.

<cut out bits>

And it really fits in well with the whole "Shadow magic is different and superior to normal magic" thing the flavor has in it. And with the way mysteries really aren't spells, they're something different that eventually matches supernatural powers.

Anyways, that's about all I have to say on the subject. Thanks for your time, Mouseferatu. I'll read replies, but probably won't comment much.

That might work - I'd have to have another look at the mysteries and see. Unfortunately, they don't let me do D&D research while I'm supposed to be working. ^_^
 

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