The Shaman and some Feat Questions

[tylermalan]

I've got two issues that are unrelated.

Issue the First

I'm having issues with the Shaman. I'm DMing a game where one of my players plays one. A few questions about it have come up.

1) Can the Shaman's spirit companion flank enemies with other allies on the PC's team?

2) The spirit companion seems more-or-less invincible. It only takes damage and dies when at least 10 points of damage are done to it in a single attack. At first level, this is rarely, if ever. Minions can't kill or hurt it. Further, it can't even provoke opportunity attacks. This invincibility only goes up by level. On the minion note, if it can be attacked at all, it makes no sense that some minions would NOT attack it. Zombies for instance likely wouldn't understand that this thing was a spirit and they aren't/can't hurt it.

Issue the Second

If you are a sorcerer wielding a dagger as an implement, can you take Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, and Implement Expertise, and get a total of +3 to hit with that dagger from all of those feats combined?

 

[DracoSuave]

I've got two issues that are unrelated.

Issue the First

I'm having issues with the Shaman. I'm DMing a game where one of my players plays one. A few questions about it have come up.

1) Can the Shaman's spirit companion flank enemies with other allies on the PC's team?

The spirit companion is not a creature. So no.

However, there are powers you can get that explicitly break this rule.

2) The spirit companion seems more-or-less invincible. It only takes damage and dies when at least 10 points of damage are done to it in a single attack. At first level, this is rarely, if ever. Minions can't kill or hurt it. Further, it can't even provoke opportunity attacks. This invincibility only goes up by level. On the minion note, if it can be attacked at all, it makes no sense that some minions would NOT attack it. Zombies for instance likely wouldn't understand that this thing was a spirit and they aren't/can't hurt it.

The thing to remember is that it is not a creature, and it is certainly not living. If the zombies have a standing instinct to kill all life, the spirit companion would be completely ignored. It doesn't provoke OAs because, again, not a creature. Nor can it make OAs, but that's gotten around by the fact you have an opportunity action class feature power that pretends to be an OA.

Don't think of the Spirit as a creature, but as a spell effect (which happens to be 'Be the point of origin for Spirit powers') and things make a lot more sense.

Issue the Second

If you are a sorcerer wielding a dagger as an implement, can you take Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, and Implement Expertise, and get a total of +3 to hit with that dagger from all of those feats combined?

No.

Weapon Focus doesn't add to your attack rolls.
Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise don't stack, explicitly (from the update/errata).

Weapon Focus for +1 damage, and Focused Expertise (daggers) is the way you want to go, for a total +1 damage and +1 to attack with either weapon or implement powers.

 

[Lord Ernie]

I've got two issues that are unrelated.

Issue the First

I'm having issues with the Shaman. I'm DMing a game where one of my players plays one. A few questions about it have come up.

1) Can the Shaman's spirit companion flank enemies with other allies on the PC's team?

The rules on flanking say you and an ally have to flank the target to provide combat advantage. Since a conjuration is not an ally (unless the power specifically states so for this purpose), the spirit companion can not provide flanking.

2) The spirit companion seems more-or-less invincible. It only takes damage and dies when at least 10 points of damage are done to it in a single attack. At first level, this is rarely, if ever. Minions can't kill or hurt it. Further, it can't even provoke opportunity attacks. This invincibility only goes up by level. On the minion note, if it can be attacked at all, it makes no sense that some minions would NOT attack it. Zombies for instance likely wouldn't understand that this thing was a spirit and they aren't/can't hurt it.

Think of the spirit companion as more or less immaterial. A zombie would ignore the thing, cause it has no flesh (or brains) to chew on.

This could go for most enemies; the spirit cannot flank, and needs to be individually targeted to be destroyed, after which the shaman can resummon it with a minor action... so ignore it, and attack the actual party. If you take down the shaman, the spirit disappears, anyway.

Issue the Second

If you are a sorcerer wielding a dagger as an implement, can you take Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, and Implement Expertise, and get a total of +3 to hit with that dagger from all of those feats combined?

Check out the errata/update for the feats. They don't stack.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[tylermalan]

The spirit companion is not a creature. So no.

However, there are powers you can get that explicitly break this rule.

The flanking rules don't specify anything regarding "being a creature". They say only that you must be able to attack to be able to flank.

The thing to remember is that it is not a creature, and it is certainly not living. If the zombies have a standing instinct to kill all life, the spirit companion would be completely ignored. It doesn't provoke OAs because, again, not a creature. Nor can it make OAs, but that's gotten around by the fact you have an opportunity action class feature power that pretends to be an OA.

Don't think of the Spirit as a creature, but as a spell effect (which happens to be 'Be the point of origin for Spirit powers') and things make a lot more sense.

I sort-of figured someone would say that about the zombies. Regardless, apply that to other creatures that don't have the "brain eating" flavor of zombies. The enemies can think, can see the spirit, can see the spirit attacking. Why would they not attack it (uselessly in most cases)?

No.

Weapon Focus doesn't add to your attack rolls.
Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise don't stack, explicitly (from the update/errata).

Weapon Focus for +1 damage, and Focused Expertise (daggers) is the way you want to go, for a total +1 damage and +1 to attack with either weapon or implement powers.

Misread Focus, so I see that now.

Where is the ruling on Weapon Expertise and Implement Expertise not stacking? Both are the only things referenced in the errata for the PHB 2, but I'm unclear as to what they really mean.

Also, where is focused expertise?

 

[tylermalan]

The rules on flanking say you and an ally have to flank the target to provide combat advantage. Since a conjuration is not an ally (unless the power specifically states so for this purpose), the spirit companion can not provide flanking.

I don't know about this. The spirit companion is clearly on the same side as the PCs. The Shaman has powers that allow it to attack, and a power that allows it to make opportunity attacks. "Allies" can move through the spirit's square, but enemies can't. It is visible, can be targeted, can take damage, and can "die". But it isn't an ally? Seems suspect to me.

Think of the spirit companion as more or less immaterial. A zombie would ignore the thing, cause it has no flesh (or brains) to chew on.

This could go for most enemies; the spirit cannot flank, and needs to be individually targeted to be destroyed, after which the shaman can resummon it with a minor action... so ignore it, and attack the actual party. If you take down the shaman, the spirit disappears, anyway.

I've considered doing this, but it seems metagaming.

 

[Lord Ernie]

I don't know about this. The spirit companion is clearly on the same side as the PCs. The Shaman has powers that allow it to attack, and a power that allows it to make opportunity attacks. "Allies" can move through the spirit's square, but enemies can't. It is visible, can be targeted, can take damage, and can "die". But it isn't an ally? Seems suspect to me.

For more evidence on this, check out the rules on summoned creatures, which the spirit companion is not; those specifically state that they summon a creature which is an ally to the party. A conjuration never states this. Indeed, DracoSuave's suggestion of considering it a spell effect seems like the best way to look at it.

I've considered doing this, but it seems metagaming.

If this is too metagamey, either define the conjuration as too obviously a magical effect (and not a creature) for most things to target, or make the enemy take it down once and ignore it after the shaman resummons it, or ignore it completely if their attacks deal no damage. That way, the spirit can feel appropriately cool without ruining things for you.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I don't know about this. The spirit companion is clearly on the same side as the PCs. The Shaman has powers that allow it to attack, and a power that allows it to make opportunity attacks. "Allies" can move through the spirit's square, but enemies can't. It is visible, can be targeted, can take damage, and can "die". But it isn't an ally? Seems suspect to me.

Don't overthink it. It might have traits that it shares with an ally or a creature, but it is still spelled out as not a creature or ally, so it can't help flanking.

I've considered doing this, but it seems metagaming.

You have to consider that the NPCs still notice some effects. For example, that the Spirit is not affected by area effects. Or that they don't seem to make a dent in it when they try to attack it. So they know it's not quite "right", and if there is no obvious way to defeat it, pick a different target.

---
Focused Expertise is described in the Monk Playtest article.

 

[tylermalan]

For more evidence on this, check out the rules on summoned creatures, which the spirit companion is not; those specifically state that they summon a creature which is an ally to the party. A conjuration never states this. Indeed, DracoSuave's suggestion of considering it a spell effect seems like the best way to look at it.

I just did at your suggestion, and you're right. That adds a lot of weight, so I'll be notifying my players next session.

If this is too metagamey, either define the conjuration as too obviously a magical effect (and not a creature) for most things to target, or make the enemy take it down once and ignore it after the shaman resummons it, or ignore it completely if their attacks deal no damage. That way, the spirit can feel appropriately cool without ruining things for you.

These are good points. I think I'll even tell my Shaman player out of game how I'm going to handle it, so he knows what to expect.

Don't overthink it. It might have traits that it shares with an ally or a creature, but it is still spelled out as not a creature or ally, so it can't help flanking.

You're definitely right, I was overthinking it.

You have to consider that the NPCs still notice some effects. For example, that the Spirit is not affected by area effects. Or that they don't seem to make a dent in it when they try to attack it. So they know it's not quite "right", and if there is no obvious way to defeat it, pick a different target.

---
Focused Expertise is described in the Monk Playtest article.

Yeah, I'll just have them realize what's going on after an attack or two, then just move on.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah, I'll just have them realize what's going on after an attack or two, then just move on.

If a PC has a trick like this, I try to have the monsters fall for it at least once per session, if not once per encounter. (E.g.: running away from the Fighter to provoke an OA.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

For the record, there -are- conjuration powers that bring forth creatures as their effects. This will explicitly be noted -as- a creature; conjurations which don't, however, aren't.

And having the occasional monster attack the conjuration isn't a bad idea either, so long as you realize the thing does not act or look like a creature, and the shaman is still the source of the spirit's 'attacks'. They might see the spirit swipe at them, but they -know- it's the shaman pulling the puppet's strings as surely as they know when a wizard has just conjured up a pillar of lightning.


EDIT: Of course, if a shaman wanted to Bluff monsters into being fooled by it, I have no problem giving them the chance to do so.