The shifter Prc is it worth it??

[fl8m]

I have been wanting to try out the Prc Shifter from MotW since i got the book, but when i looked at it from the point of view of a player (instead of just fantasizing about flying around shapeshifted into a balor) i realized i wouldn't gain any spells for 10 levels!!

my question is, is it worth it? from reading the description the shifter would recieve all the extrordinary abilities of any shape chosen. does that make up enough for missing (or delaying) 5 levels of spells? other than the "weee! i can turn into a hummingbird and a fire giant and a wight and a tarrasque!" factor is it's practical use in "normal" encounters worth it? has anybody actually played one, or run a game with a player who played one?

there's just something very attractive about waking up and deciding to change into an astral deva...

 

[Feanor Starym]

lets see..
good forms
Girallon :combat power
Troll: Combat power + regen (which is extraordinary)
Clay Golem: Combat Power + spell immunity + haste
Umber Hulk (dig boy, dig!)
Various winged forms..
the fact that your options increase with each new monster you meet (cos you can then shift into them)
have i made it attractive enough yet?

At 1st level shifter, the ability to basically be the ultimate thief (grab item, shape into yourself, choosing to meld the item).

 

[Iku Rex]

my question is, is it worth it?

Yes.

You won't have the magical firepower of a 20th level spellcaster, but I still thing the shifter makes a both interesting and powerful class.

Harzerkatze has a looong list of good forms here: http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=220;t=000166;p=2

 

[nharwell]

It depends on what you mean by "worth it" Yes, the class is slightly "weaker" than a single-classed spellcaster. However, it offers an interesting schtick and a great deal of flexibility.

Pros:
You have a very flexible power that gives you

- stealth
- disguise/social
- movement
- combat

Cons:
On the other hand, you have a power

- that's completely DM-dependent (he controls what you encounter and thus what forms you have available)
- that at high-levels is made redundant by a single spell (shapechange)
- that has some goofy affects according to the sage rulings (you don't get subtype abilties, so becoming an elemental or salamander, for example, would kill you as you burn up -- you have the "heat" or "burn" extraordinary abilities but not the fire subtype immunity to fire).

And, of course, you give up all spell-casting advancement.

The cost for the PrC is two "weak" feats. All-in-all, I'd say it's a very specialized PrC that's "worth it" only if you really want to play a shapeshifter and don't want to wait until 17th-level....
For much of the game, though, your role is primarily that of a back-up fighter.

 

[drnuncheon]

There's always the shapeshifter from OA if you want to get some spellcasting advancement. Not as much shapeshifting power though. It's also got the advantage of not requiring spell use (if you were playing a creature with a natural shapeshifting power, like a hengeyokai, also from OA).

J

 

[Iku Rex]

- that's completely DM-dependent (he controls what you encounter and thus what forms you have available)

That depends on the DM )). If I was DMing I'd allow polymorph self, shapechange or another shifter to serve as a "model". So if you, having devoted your life (more or less) to perfecting your shape-shifting abilities, hear about a form that is especially efficient you can pay to have an NPC show it to you.

- that at high-levels is made redundant by a single spell (shapechange)

Wrong.

The shifter can choose whether or not to meld equipment into the new form (with some exceptions), you get the feats of the new form (I am unsure if this applies to shapechange too) and the greater wild shape ability can't be dispelled (lv 6+).

- that has some goofy affects according to the sage rulings (you don't get subtype abilties, so becoming an elemental or salamander, for example, would kill you as you burn up -- you have the "heat" or "burn" extraordinary abilities but not the fire subtype immunity to fire).

If you want to get literal regarding this I don't think it says anywhere that the creature producing the fire is damaged by it...

- The cost for the PrC is two "weak" feats. All-in-all, I'd say it's a very specialized PrC that's "worth it" only if you really want to play a shapeshifter and don't want to wait until 17th-level....
For much of the game, though, your role is primarily that of a back-up fighter.

Back up? A shifter with access to a half-decent combat form will wipe the floor with (just about?) any fighter. And in addition to this he will have plenty of other abilities.

 

[Stalker0]

I play a 5 druid/5 shifter in Heart of Nightfang Spire and in my opinion the class is broken.

Once you get troll or ogre mage, you never need healing again. You str, dex, and con can go throught the roof and you get to keep your magic equipment.


My advice, go through the Monster's manual and look at every monster there except feys. Now read the ex abilities of each one and realise that a shifter eventually gets access to all of them. That and considering the amount of times you can shift per day, and you've got a class who imho versatility can't be beat.

 

[skymage]

i personally love the shifter class. i've wanted somthing like this scince 2nd edition and finally i got one.
i take this class because it's somthing i want to roleplay, as well as having great potential power wise.

HOUSE RULE

we (my gaming group) are more flexable with choices allowed. for instance druids can take any animal form even if they never seen it as long as they are able to use thier nature sense to identify it it's asumed that he/she knows enough to become it. one of the percs of greater wild shape.

as for spell casters we allow a knowledge check to see if the person has read about it before dc 10 + cr + dm cause not many people are going to get a full reliable description of a tarrasq so the dm might add another 5-10 to the dc.

that way you can turn into somthing you've never seen before, and a tropical druid can use greater wild shape to become a polar bear and a sorcerer that's never seen a dragon can make a knowledge check and become a dragon.

end of house rule

as for combat and power compared to others it depends on the situation and shapes. just becomeing a demon might be enough to scar of lots of opponents but a spider form will let you travel along the ceiling who traps a ceiling anyway. then there is inside or out side of a dungeon. reach is nice but when you are in a dungeon you have to worry about size restraints.

HOUSE RULE

we also allow templates but that would increase the dc for the knowledge check. we also allow synergy if i make a knowledge monster check about an astral deva and i hive 5+ranks in knowledge the planes then i get a +2 to my check.

end of house rule

in the end it all has to do with the shapes you take. the adventure you play and wether or not everyone else is power gaming or not. i don't have to worry about power gamers. most of the people i play with try to max out as much as they can but they are not very good at it.

 

[MeanGenes]

Another way to shifter (aside from druid) is to go through the ranger route. Once you can cast 4th level spells (I think that's 15th or 16th level), you can start adding shifter levels for the real hurting. This of course assumes you plan on playing the shifter into epic levels. Imagine a dual-wielding titan...

 

[nharwell]

That depends on the DM )). If I was DMing I'd allow polymorph self, shapechange or another shifter to serve as a "model". So if you, having devoted your life (more or less) to perfecting your shape-shifting abilities, hear about a form that is especially efficient you can pay to have an NPC show it to you.

According to the sage's "clarifications" you must have studied the creature for a day or fought it in combat

The shifter can choose whether or not to meld equipment into the new form (with some exceptions), you get the feats of the new form (I am unsure if this applies to shapechange too) and the greater wild shape ability can't be dispelled (lv 6+).

True, the equipment choice is nice. But equipment alters to fit your form (if humanoid, giant, etc.) with Shapechange. Shapechange also gives you the "type" of the creature, and has no hit die cap.

If you want to get literal regarding this I don't think it says anywhere that the creature producing the fire is damaged by it...

From the SRD description of the salamander:

"Heat (Ex): A salamander generates so much heat that its mere touch deals additional fire damage."

and

"Fire Subtype (Ex): Fire immunity, double damage from cold except on a successful save."

Nowhere does it mention anything about any other immunity to fire. If a shifter in salamander form generates that much heat but doesn't have any fire resistance, how can he NOT take damage.

Back up? A shifter with access to a half-decent combat form will wipe the floor with (just about?) any fighter. And in addition to this he will have plenty of other abilities.

I have to disagree. Have you played a shifter or is your opinion based on how the class looks on paper? Having both played and run a shifter, I find the opposite to be true. The shifter makes a great support character; he can sometimes fill in for rogue or fighter. But given (1) the limitation on forms from the DM and (2) the fact that his best attacks are "natural" and thus unaugmented by most magic items, shifters never quite equal fighters in combat (as well they shouldn't!).