The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[SKyOdin]

I have heard Heracles mentioned several times as an "epic level hero". Not being too familiar with all the details of the hercules legend, what made him so epic?

From what I gather he was really really strong and beat a lot of big monsters. Sounds upper paragon perhaps, but Dnd epic level?

Heracles is a bit of a tricky case to figure out. On one hand, many of the monsters he is famous for defeating are used as common D&D monsters. On the other hand, he performed some truly incredible feats of strength. In order to get the golden apples, he made a bargain with the Titan Atlas, in which Heracles agreed to hold the heavens on his shoulders for a few hours in Atlas' place. Similarly, Heracles supposedly created the 'Pillars of Hercules', the massive rocks on either side of the Straight of Gibraltar (in another version, Heracles pulverized a mountainside to create the Straight).

Of course, the monsters Heracles fought were in a very different league than their D&D equivalents. Most of them were the direct offspring of Typhon, the most powerful of all monsters whom even the gods feared. Among them was Cerberus, the guardian of the gates of the underworld, whom Heracles had to subdue and capture alive without weapons as his final labor.

What also serves to elevate Heracles to Epic Tier was that he did become a god after his death as a mortal being. There were numerous temples dedicated to him in the ancient world.

 

[Ryujin]

He was also the son of Zeus and Alcmene, a human woman. Demigods get a leg-up on the Epic thing.

 

[Sunseeker]

Perhaps I've missed something, but has anything actually labelled "god" been assigned statistical data in 4e? I'm not talking about "some beings worship Orcus as a god" or the like -- I mean something like "Erathis is a god, and has the following statistics which can be used in combat against her."

Because although I will grant your point with regard to pre-4e D&D, I have seen no evidence that it still applies in 4e.

As was pointed out, some gods and Primordials have stat blocks, which set a precedent that gods DO have stats, and that if you follow these designs, you could, theoretically, stat any god.

Likewise, some gods are more story elements, they don't have stats, but based on the precedents for other gods, the particular story surrounding said god, you could stat them and therefore, kill them.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

Where to start on Heracles? Birth is most likely best.

Strangled two divinely sent serpents as a newborn baby, one in each hand.

Strangled the Nemean Lion whose hide could not be peirce by arrow or blade and turned its hide into his famous armor after skinning it with its own claws.

Slew 8 of the 9 heads of the Lernean Hydra and buried the final immortal one under a rock. Also note the Hydra had not just regenerating heads, but a deadly poison aura that had killed everything else for miles.

Captured the Ceryneian Hind (also know as the Golden Hind), a creature so fast it could out run an arrow in flight.

Captured the Erymanthian Boar. A Giant Boar that depending on the version of the story may have been the God Ares himself.

Cleaned out a stable of 1000 cattle that hadn't been cleaned in 30 years by redirecting 2 major rivers.

Killed a flock of maneating birds with metal beaks and metallic feathers that they could launch like darts.

Captured the Cretan Bull, possible father of the Minotaur.

Stole 4 man-eating mares from the demigod giant Diomedes, son of Ares.

Seduced the Amazon Queen Hippolyta, daughter of Ares, for her magic girdle, a present from her father.

Stole a herd of divine cattle from Geryon, a 6-armed 3-headed giant, and Orthrus, the 2-headed brother of Cerberus.

Caught the Old Man of the Sea, a shapeshifting sea god.

Killed the giant Antaeus, son of Gaia and Poseiden, who was unbeatable as long as he touched the ground.

Held up the heavens while Titan Atlas went to get the famous golden apples from his daughters.

Journied to the underworld and then captured and carried Cerberus back to the surface.

Free the Titan Prometheus from his divine bondage.

Beat Death in a wrestling match inorder to save the lives of his host and hostess.

Challenged the Dionysus, God of Wine, to a drinking contest which he barely lost.

Killed the hundred headed serpent Ladon.

Beat the river god Achelous.

Of note is that the Lernean Hydra, Nemian Lion, Orthrus, Ladon and Cerberus were all the spawn of Thypon, a monster Zeus and his brothers could not kill and had to trap under a mountain, and Echidna, the Mother of All Monsters.

 

[the Jester]

Perhaps I've missed something, but has anything actually labelled "god" been assigned statistical data in 4e?

Tons of them. Vecna, Bahamut, Tiamat, Bane (? IIRC he's in one of the early 4e Dragons issues, but maybe it's just his aspect or something)... prolly one or two more.

 

[chaochou]

I think one of the problems here is that to be a 'god' means to be more than HP and AC and a bunch of powers and actions.

It means to be the physical representation of something which mortals experience - summer or winter or death or agriculture. You kill the god of music, music no longer exists, either physically or conceptually.

Playing that level of game is one thing, but creating the environment where players are ready to take on that responsibility and have something they believe in so strongly that they want and need to be 'god' of it is more difficult.

I don't like the way PCs hit level 21 and suddenly its 'WHAM! You are now godlike!' Especially if at earlier levels you could essentially bumble through by killing everything and picking up the treasure.

To make it work you need to be sowing the seeds of plot and drama and character way before then. Like a PCs first love has been turned undead (when he was, say, level 8). He's tried all kinds of quests and rituals and whatnot to get her back, and failed and failed and failed. And finally (at level 21) he goes 'Screw you Orcus, things just got personal.'

And the party quests and battles and plots and eventually kills Orcus, and undeath no longer exists for a while (until some author with a vivid imagination goes and writes Frankenstein and he seeps slowly back into the world). But what really happened is the hero got the girl - killing Orcus wasn't IT. It's just how the story to get the girl played out.

This is the way I see Epic level. PCs can get stuff done by rearranging the concepts that create the world. But the responsibility lies with the GM to provide meaning to that world such that they have personal stuff they need to get done.

These ideas don't come from running or playing D&D, btw. These are Herowars ideas, but I think they fit the discussion.

 

[Jack99]

Tons of them. Vecna, Bahamut, Tiamat, Bane (? IIRC he's in one of the early 4e Dragons issues, but maybe it's just his aspect or something)... prolly one or two more.

Just Bane's aspects...

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Tons of them. Vecna, Bahamut, Tiamat, Bane (? IIRC he's in one of the early 4e Dragons issues, but maybe it's just his aspect or something)... prolly one or two more.

Okay, you guys win. I stay away from the MM's in order to stay in the dark where my DMs prefer to keep me, so I hadn't known about it. The only one I've read is MM1, and the closest it got was Orcus.

 

[Ryujin]

It means to be the physical representation of something which mortals experience - summer or winter or death or agriculture. You kill the god of music, music no longer exists, either physically or conceptually.

Or, if you've read Piers Anthony's "Incarnations of Immortality" series, you BECOME 'Music.'

 

[Aegeri]

Tons of them. Vecna, Bahamut, Tiamat, Bane (? IIRC he's in one of the early 4e Dragons issues, but maybe it's just his aspect or something)... prolly one or two more.

Primordials, Gods, Archfiends and Daemon Princes (some of whom were Gods/Primordials)

Vecna (level 35 solo, Open Grave)
Kyuss (Level 31 solo, Open Grave)
Orcus (Level 33 solo, MM1; Level 34 solo, E3)
Dagon (Level 32 solo, MM2)
Demogorgon (Level 34 solo, MM2)
Lolth (Level 35 solo, MM3)
Allabar, Opener of the Way (Level 30 solo, MM3)
Imix (Level 32 solo, MM3)
Ogremoch (Level 32? solo, MM3)
Blazing Rorn the Fury (Level 33 solo, Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide*)
Graz'zt (Level 32 solo, Manual of the Planes)
Oublivae (Level 30 solo, Demonomicon)
Pazuzu** (Level 33 solo, Demonomicon)
Torog (Level 34 solo, Underdark)
Tiamat (Level 35 solo, Draconomicon I)
Bahamut (Level 36 solo, Draconomicon II)

Of these, Vecna, Torog, Tiamat, Bahamut and Lolth are Gods. Everything else is a primordial, daemon prince or archfiend. With upgrading damage values, I still think that Tiamat is the strongest solo of the list. Also Bane was never statted because he's arguably beyond level 36. Designers at the time during the drama of "Why no stats?!" pointed out he'd be likely to be around level 38. So is in fact well out of the general reach of all but the absolutely best optimized PCs.

*I do wonder how many people even realize this guy exists.
**He is either immensely ridiculous or just ridiculous, depending on how you read a certain power.

Edit2: After a bit of dinner, I remembered there are actually some others I forgot to list.

Phraxas the Decayed (Level 31 solo, Demonomicon)
Kostchtchie (Level 31 solo, Demonomicon)
Turaglas (Level 30 solo, Dragon Magazine 376)
Bel-Shalor (Level 34 solo, Eberron Campaign Guide)***
Geryon, the Broken Beast (Level 30 controller, Dungeon Magazine 176)
Solkara (Level 34 controller, The Plane Below)****

You can tell from these lists that if you like Daemons, you have So. Many. Options. I mean look how many level 30+ epic demons there are! Primordials and Gods make up the rest of it. Personally, I would like to see a lot more variety here, even if that means going and filling out some Devils. I actually think that Geryon may be the only level 30+ devil in all of 4E! There are lots of great archfiends that we could have as well, especially if wizards makes a book for devils ala Demonomicon (hint hint).

***Strictly put, he doesn't really fit the criteria, but in terms of being an epic level solo that is a demon who dooms the entire world if he wakes up he is relevant. Also note that despite the time he was published, he's arguably one of the most effective solos in the game.

****I concede I only remembered her at literally the last moment now. She does have one of the most literally hilarious powers ever though, which makes it even odder that I forgot about her. No offense intended Solkara, <3