The Slow Death of Epic Tier

[Ryujin]

Howdy Ryujin!



Different people are going to have different opinions on what epic is or is not.

But for me there is a clear distinction between epic heroes and gods...

Achilles is an epic hero, Ares is a god.
Elric is an epic hero, Arioch is a god.
Conan is an epic hero, Dagoth is a god.

...but that doesn't mean the two cannot interact at a physical level.

Agreed, though I would think that "physical interaction" between an epic hero and a god should generally come out very badly for the hero. Now INTELLECTUAL interaction, on the other hand.....

 

[SKyOdin]

I disagree. The epic tier is for roleplaying epic mortal heroes, the immortal tier would be for roleplaying as gods.

I don't see any dilution, but rather a clear distinction.

The truth is that the distinction between truly powerful mortals and gods can be somewhat vague in non-monotheistic religions. Confusing the issue is that there are many grey areas between mortal human and god, such as demi-gods and mortal incarnations of gods.

More than anything else though, epic heroes are supposed to be the strongest heroes who are capable of fighting off enemies that threaten the world as a whole. It isn't really possible to create a tier above that without weakening the basic premise of Epic Tier.

I'd say any hero who has battled gods (or Anti-gods) in some capacity is an Epic Hero.

I will generally agree with that, though it depends somewhat on the god. The term god is pretty broadly defined in polytheistic religions. I wouldn't put the god of a minor river on par with Zeus, for example. The protective god of a single house would likewise not really count as being very epic.

I think you could define it as...

Paragon Heroes...among the best in the land/country.
Epic Tier Heroes...among the best in the world.

In which case King Arthur is probably Paragon Tier, while Sir Lancelot is Epic Tier, as is probably Achilles.

This I definitely have to disagree with. There is no way I would put Arthur and Lancelot in separate tiers, to start with. The kind of adventures the Knights of the Round go on tend to be generally similar, and all of them are roughly the same overall strength. Saying that Lancelot gets to be Epic tier is rather arbitrary. I would peg them both as being Paragon tier.

Moreover, being Epic isn't about being the strongest in the world. It is about being powerful enough to significantly change the world. By my reckoning, Epic level heroes should only show up once every few centuries within a D&D world, and leave a lasting impact whenever they do. Merely being the strongest in the world isn't enough to be Epic.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The truth is that the distinction between truly powerful mortals and gods can be somewhat vague in non-monotheistic religions. Confusing the issue is that there are many grey areas between mortal human and god, such as demi-gods and mortal incarnations of gods.

More than anything else though, epic heroes are supposed to be the strongest heroes who are capable of fighting off enemies that threaten the world as a whole. It isn't really possible to create a tier above that without weakening the basic premise of Epic Tier.


I will generally agree with that, though it depends somewhat on the god. The term god is pretty broadly defined in polytheistic religions. I wouldn't put the god of a minor river on par with Zeus, for example. The protective god of a single house would likewise not really count as being very epic.


This I definitely have to disagree with. There is no way I would put Arthur and Lancelot in separate tiers, to start with. The kind of adventures the Knights of the Round go on tend to be generally similar, and all of them are roughly the same overall strength. Saying that Lancelot gets to be Epic tier is rather arbitrary. I would peg them both as being Paragon tier.

Moreover, being Epic isn't about being the strongest in the world. It is about being powerful enough to significantly change the world. By my reckoning, Epic level heroes should only show up once every few centuries within a D&D world, and leave a lasting impact whenever they do. Merely being the strongest in the world isn't enough to be Epic.

There are other epic level beings in the world. Like PCs they probably have access to other planes or similar kinds of resources. Many are immortal and thus old and patient. It is also quite possible and probably desirable if some of these beings are human or of other demi-human races and perhaps not too different from the PCs. They are PROBABLY not capstone foes, but then again there are examples of those kinds of beings, mortals that become channels for the gods etc. PCs can do that too. I think all of this is fully envisaged in Epic. You should have an ED that is a STRONG story element. Nobody should be picking their ED for mechanical reasons. When you go against whatever it is you fight against at 30th level it should be like an inevitable destiny or central goal of the character to get there. There's no reason that goal has to have the label god, or demi-god, or whatever. It could be a Sorcerer King or it could be an Evil Wizard or undead Emperor or whatever.

 

[Ultimatecalibur]

This is the realm of Rama, Thor, Heracles, Susa-no-O and even Cthulhu.

I have heard Heracles mentioned several times as an "epic level hero". Not being too familiar with all the details of the hercules legend, what made him so epic?

From what I gather he was really really strong and beat a lot of big monsters. Sounds upper paragon perhaps, but Dnd epic level?

 

[Sunseeker]

Warning: This post references Anime, Manga, Movies, Modern Fantasy Fiction and Video Games.
*snip*[/QUOTE]

I like this, it helps illustrate that "high levels" depend on the scope. If your adventurer's are only ever saving towns, then lvl10 is pretty darn awesome. Cities? Maybe now you need to be lvl20 to be as comparativly impressive. Galaxies/planes/dimensions? Even lvl30 is not so fantastic when the scope is so large.


Personally, I think part of the issue people are having above is misunderstanding the concept of "god" in the D&D multiverse. A god, however mighty and powerful, is not THE God, nor is it even Zeus, who was incredibly powerful and near The-God-like. Though they have power beyond what most can imagine, that power has limits, many of them have been killed, beaten down, or contained. These gods, even the great ones, are much like the lower pantheons of classical mythologies. They have amazing powers...with limits...immortal life, but can be killed.

I would say SKyOdin is probably most right on when it comes to breaking down the lines between "powerful mortals" and "gods". In pantheistic universes, gods are not so much omni-powerful beings, but superbly incredible mortals. Because they are indeed, quite killable.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Personally, I think part of the issue people are having above is misunderstanding the concept of "god" in the D&D multiverse. A god, however mighty and powerful, is not THE God, nor is it even Zeus, who was incredibly powerful and near The-God-like. Though they have power beyond what most can imagine, that power has limits, many of them have been killed, beaten down, or contained. These gods, even the great ones, are much like the lower pantheons of classical mythologies. They have amazing powers...with limits...immortal life, but can be killed.

Perhaps I've missed something, but has anything actually labelled "god" been assigned statistical data in 4e? I'm not talking about "some beings worship Orcus as a god" or the like -- I mean something like "Erathis is a god, and has the following statistics which can be used in combat against her."

Because although I will grant your point with regard to pre-4e D&D, I have seen no evidence that it still applies in 4e.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Perhaps I've missed something, but has anything actually labelled "god" been assigned statistical data in 4e? I'm not talking about "some beings worship Orcus as a god" or the like -- I mean something like "Erathis is a god, and has the following statistics which can be used in combat against her."

Because although I will grant your point with regard to pre-4e D&D, I have seen no evidence that it still applies in 4e.

Bahamut, Tiamat, and Lolth all have combat stat blocks. I think there was a general statement that the designers weren't interested in providing stat blocks generally for the "greater" gods (though there is no such precise term in 4e). There are also stat blocks for a significant number of Primordials, which are effectively at the god level of power even if they are not technically considered 'gods'. The stated desire IIRC is to avoid exactly this "we can kill Erathis" kind of thing. These kinds of beings probably CAN be defeated in some sense, perhaps even 'killed' under very specific circumstances but the intent seems to be only as a story element and not something players will just decide to do when they are bored on a Saturday afternoon.

The whole scope thing I think is generally what we've been talking about, but I think I would construct a rather different set of categories.

 

[Stalker0]

I have heard Heracles mentioned several times as an "epic level hero". Not being too familiar with all the details of the hercules legend, what made him so epic?

From what I gather he was really really strong and beat a lot of big monsters. Sounds upper paragon perhaps, but Dnd epic level?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Ryujin!

Agreed, though I would think that "physical interaction" between an epic hero and a god should generally come out very badly for the hero. Now INTELLECTUAL interaction, on the other hand.....

Which is why the heroes...

A. Usually bring along a bunch of 3-4 friends to even the odds.
B. Usually have some sort of uber-macguffin, like Stormbringer to even the odds.
C. Undertake some quest that will weaken the god or thin out the ranks of the gods servants.

Annoyingly pressed for time again tonight but should be back on track tomorrow...I hope.

 

[Ryujin]

Hey Ryujin!



Which is why the heroes...

A. Usually bring along a bunch of 3-4 friends to even the odds.
B. Usually have some sort of uber-macguffin, like Stormbringer to even the odds.
C. Undertake some quest that will weaken the god or thin out the ranks of the gods servants.

Annoyingly pressed for time again tonight but should be back on track tomorrow...I hope.

... or engage in a tricksterish test of intellect which the godling either grudgingly admits defeat in, or is pressed to admit it by his fellow godlings