D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[EzekielRaiden]

If that were true then sorcerer wouldn't need to steal 90%+ of its spell list before adding extras and would set off on its own path. It's a situation like if barbarian got heavy armor second wind action surge rage a third attack at 11 and justified it by only having most of the battle master maneuvers. There's a point where the term embarrassment of riches is reached, sorcerer as designed currently targets it

And yet you ignore the fundamental point: the Wizard is the class with no actual mechanics beyond "cast more spells," "turn some basic spells into cantrips," and "cast some slightly powerful spells an extra time each day." The Wizard is the class where its subclasses do almost nothing, much of it perfectly reduplicated, and which could extremely easily be compressed into a single level plus (optionally) a 1st-level feat. The Wizard is the class that doesn't lift one finger mechanically to do anything of the actual fluff and flavor, no research, no spell development, no publication, no interaction with the academic community. Hell, the Scribes subclass is literally the only one that even has mechanics that actually care about the spell book beyond its purely utilitarian function as a Pokemon card binder learned spell collection.

Everything the Wizard is, including all its special unique spells not shared with Sorcerer, could be reduced to a single Sorcerer subclass and most people would barely notice.

Why is it then the Sorcerer that must go, if it is nearly trivial to condense the Wizard into the Sorcerer with only minor loss, but practically impossible to condense the Sorcerer into the Wizard without gutting most of the class and its subclasses?

 

[Corinnguard]

And yet you ignore the fundamental point: the Wizard is the class with no actual mechanics beyond "cast more spells," "turn some basic spells into cantrips," and "cast some slightly powerful spells an extra time each day." The Wizard is the class where its subclasses do almost nothing, much of it perfectly reduplicated, and which could extremely easily be compressed into a single level plus (optionally) a 1st-level feat. The Wizard is the class that doesn't lift one finger mechanically to do anything of the actual fluff and flavor, no research, no spell development, no publication, no interaction with the academic community.

I am willing to bet that what you said here about the 5e Wizard is what lead the Level Up crew to design more usefulness into their version of the class. As the Level Up wizard gets Spellcasting, Arcane Recovery, Scholarly Excellence, Elective Studies, Signature Spell, Spell Study, Wizard's Flair, Bestow Magics, Arcane Defenses, Spell Intensity and Archmage.

Wizard | Level Up

a5e.tools

The Level Up Sorcerer is just as nice.

Sorcerer | Level Up

a5e.tools

 

[tetrasodium]

And yet you ignore the fundamental point: the Wizard is the class with no actual mechanics beyond "cast more spells," "turn some basic spells into cantrips," and "cast some slightly powerful spells an extra time each day." The Wizard is the class where its subclasses do almost nothing, much of it perfectly reduplicated, and which could extremely easily be compressed into a single level plus (optionally) a 1st-level feat. The Wizard is the class that doesn't lift one finger mechanically to do anything of the actual fluff and flavor, no research, no spell development, no publication, no interaction with the academic community. Hell, the Scribes subclass is literally the only one that even has mechanics that actually care about the spell book beyond its purely utilitarian function as a Pokemon card binder learned spell collection.

Everything the Wizard is, including all its special unique spells not shared with Sorcerer, could be reduced to a single Sorcerer subclass and most people would barely notice.

Why is it then the Sorcerer that must go, if it is nearly trivial to condense the Wizard into the Sorcerer with only minor loss, but practically impossible to condense the Sorcerer into the Wizard without gutting most of the class and its subclasses?

No. I rejected it, there is a difference. Wotc overdid it giving stuff from another class's core strength and after doing so didn't leave enough room in the power budget for sorcerer to stand on its own merits.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

No. I rejected it, there is a difference. Wotc overdid it giving stuff from another class's core strength and after doing so didn't leave enough room in the power budget for sorcerer to stand on its own merits.

Then this is a reason to redesign both classes, not to utterly delete one specific one of them and "replace" it with something that won't, can't, recapture the relevant flavor NOR mechanics.

 

[tetrasodium]

Then this is a reason to redesign both classes, not to utterly delete one specific one of them and "replace" it with something that won't, can't, recapture the relevant flavor NOR mechanics.

ahem... It's more complicated that & you seem to be fighting for stagnant continuation of a wizard subclass as a full class with subclasses of its own. In quite a few of my posts I've mentioned how the sorcerer needs to carve a path of its own & stop relying on being "wizard but hot" in order to find room in the power budget for building it's own strengths without needing to steal the bulk of the wizard's strengths to do it. You can't have both a class charting its own course and stagnant devotion to the original poor design choices.

If wotc's not willing to do that so sorcerer can stand on its own merits rather than "wizard but hot", well it can be a wizard subclass like every other wizard but x wizard subclass or should just be ejected on the grounds of failing to define itself.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And yet you ignore the fundamental point: the Wizard is the class with no actual mechanics beyond "cast more spells," "turn some basic spells into cantrips," and "cast some slightly powerful spells an extra time each day."

You miss one that is, at least to me, huge for low level wizards - cast ritual spells while not having them prepared because they are in the spell book. Wizards aren't researchers, but are librarians able to make use of things others can't.

Of course it makes me wonder what WotC thinks that a ritual is.

Everything the Wizard is, including all its special unique spells not shared with Sorcerer, could be reduced to a single Sorcerer subclass and most people would barely notice.

And on this we agree, other than the word "wizard". I just count one more ability than you do.

And no I don't think that the Level Up wizard does anything really to help the sheer centralised blandness of the wizard. The wizard doesn't fail as a class; it fails in that few of its subclasses make it other than a wizard with a few extra fiddly bits. And the Level Up version just gives a few more extra fiddly bits to the core class.

 

[Vaalingrade]

No. I rejected it, there is a difference. Wotc overdid it giving stuff from another class's core strength and after doing so didn't leave enough room in the power budget for sorcerer to stand on its own merits.

Nah. they just made a class more deserving of that 'core strength'.

 

[Mecheon]

If that were true then sorcerer wouldn't need to steal 90%+ of its spell list before adding extras and would set off on its own path. It's a situation like if barbarian got heavy armor second wind action surge rage a third attack at 11 and justified it by only having most of the battle master maneuvers. There's a point where the term embarrassment of riches is reached, sorcerer as designed currently targets it

It isn't stealing the spell list? The list is the Arcane Spell List. Anyone can grab from it. Sorcerers, artificers, bards, wizards and warlocks (along with certain other random sub-classes) all grab from the same list but I don't see you saying they're stealing from it. Its a universal list for classes to draw from, its not the wizard's sole domain

The wizard's thing isn't "Spell list access" so, no, its nothing like getting all of the Fighter's features. But, you've put down exactly why people were so pissed off when they did that one wizard sub-class that just, got metamagic.

No. I rejected it, there is a difference. Wotc overdid it giving stuff from another class's core strength and after doing so didn't leave enough room in the power budget for sorcerer to stand on its own merits.

If the 'core strength' of a class is 'Accesses more of a list shared between 5 other classes" and nothing else, then that class needs to be redesigned to actually have a relelvant core strength. Its that simple.

The problem is the wizard, not the sorcerer.

ahem... It's more complicated that & you seem to be fighting for stagnant continuation of a wizard subclass as a full class with subclasses of its own. In quite a few of my posts I've mentioned how the sorcerer needs to carve a path of its own & stop relying on being "wizard but hot" in order to find room in the power budget for building it's own strengths without needing to steal the bulk of the wizard's strengths to do it. You can't have both a class charting its own course and stagnant devotion to the original poor design choices.

If wotc's not willing to do that so sorcerer can stand on its own merits rather than "wizard but hot", well it can be a wizard subclass like every other wizard but x wizard subclass or should just be ejected on the grounds of failing to define itself.

The sorcerer has a path of its own. "I have X going on so magic is my birthright and I can control magic on a degree other classes can't". It isn't wizard but hot. Wizard is "Book nerd who has to study" and none of that is in place with the sorcerer's stuff. You don't need a spellbook, you're not studying spells. Where's the wizard but hot in the mechanics? Is it just because you have access to spells? Bard has access to spells, why aren't you levying the same claims at it if that's all it takes for two classes to allegedly be the same? It doesn't even use the wizard's strengths of arcane recovery which, is the wizard's real only strength it has! That's how piss-poor the wizard is made.

The sorcerer defines itself absolutely fine and doesn't share ANY mechanic with the wizard. Why should they be merged? GIve me a reason that isn't just you saying "oh they're the same". Actually dive into 'em.

Either way like, sorcerer's not great but its not like early Ranger or anything like that, which is absolutely a class that couldn't stand on its own merits and why we got two whole redesign attempts there.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The sorcerer defines itself absolutely fine and doesn't share ANY mechanic with the wizard. Why should they be merged? GIve me a reason that isn't just you saying "oh they're the same". Actually dive into 'em.

Because the wizard basically has three things that define them:

• Access to a wide variety of spells (and it's exactly the same spells for all subclasses)
• A spell book and tweaking spells on a daily basis
• Casting rituals out of their book not out of their prepared spells.

This is a powerful collection of abilities -which means that the wizard subclasses are almost all very mediocre.

Making wizard a subclass of sorcerer would liberate subclasses like Necromancer and Illusionist so they could be given a proper focus without the base class having eaten the power budget. Of course I doubt that's the way round the person you're talking to wants them merged.

Either way like, sorcerer's not great but its not like early Ranger or anything like that, which is absolutely a class that couldn't stand on its own merits and why we got two whole redesign attempts there.

On the other hand compare the subclasses from the PHB to the subclasses from Tasha's. I would absolutely argue that the tier 1 PHB sorcerer has more issues than the tier 1 PHB Hunter ranger (but although Wild Magic is a bad subclass it's "only" as bad as the four elements monk or the champion in that you might as well not have it and not an active liability that can get you killed like the beastmaster or berserker)

 

[tetrasodium]

It isn't stealing the spell list? The list is the Arcane Spell List. Anyone can grab from it. Sorcerers, artificers, bards, wizards and warlocks (along with certain other random sub-classes) all grab from the same list but I don't see you saying they're stealing from it. Its a universal list for classes to draw from, its not the wizard's sole domain

No. Anyone can not grab for it which is why you will find the wizard spell list on PHB210 & the sorcerer spell list on 209 with warlock sandwiched between the two. The critical problem is that the omissions from the sorcerer's list found on the wizard list tend to be few & far between or bottom shelf winners like wall of sand. What few upper tier spells omitted to justify sorcerer class features tend to be given back to the sorcerer by way of subclasses to pretty much entirely stop the limitation from having any meaningful impact.

The wizard's thing isn't "Spell list access" so, no, its nothing like getting all of the Fighter's features. But, you've put down exactly why people were so pissed off when they did that one wizard sub-class that just, got metamagic.


If the 'core strength' of a class is 'Accesses more of a list shared between 5 other classes" and nothing else, then that class needs to be redesigned to actually have a relelvant core strength. Its that simple.

The problem is the wizard, not the sorcerer.

This is false... Spell list very much is key to the wizard class. Jeremy Crawford: "Yes. We get it, that truly has been a key piece of the wizard's identity for a long time. Them having this massive list that no one else has, and we're gonna make sure we protect that."

The sorcerer has a path of its own. "I have X going on so magic is my birthright and I can control magic on a degree other classes can't". It isn't wizard but hot. Wizard is "Book nerd who has to study" and none of that is in place with the sorcerer's stuff. You don't need a spellbook, you're not studying spells. Where's the wizard but hot in the mechanics? Is it just because you have access to spells? Bard has access to spells, why aren't you levying the same claims at it if that's all it takes for two classes to allegedly be the same? It doesn't even use the wizard's strengths of arcane recovery which, is the wizard's real only strength it has! That's how piss-poor the wizard is made.

The sorcerer defines itself absolutely fine and doesn't share ANY mechanic with the wizard. Why should they be merged? GIve me a reason that isn't just you saying "oh they're the same". Actually dive into 'em.

Either way like, sorcerer's not great but its not like early Ranger or anything like that, which is absolutely a class that couldn't stand on its own merits and why we got two whole redesign attempts there.

The sorcerer can't pretend that it is on a path of its own as long as that path is paved with near total access to the wizard spell list