the spontaneous divine caster

[Mistwell]

There are some prestige classes (like Sacred Exorcist, also from Complete Divine) that grant the ability to turn undead if you don't already have it.

 

[ForceUser]

leave turn undead out of the players hands. It can make undead actually scarey again, turn undead is too easy.

I find that even with turn undead, facing off against dozens of, say, shadows is still satisfyingly fear-evoking. That's my solution: turn undead? More undead!

W/regard to the original poster--no way. The problem with limiting the clerics/druids to a sorcerer-like spell list is that many essential cleric/druid spells, such as neutralize posion or remove fear, are highly situational. They are crucial when they are needed and useless when they are not. Limiting spell selections effectively removes this utility from those classes, because let's face it, given the choice, no player is going to choose lesser restoration over hold person. Hold person is dramatic and fun to cast; lesser restoration is simply necessary. It is the ability to cast the fun spells in addition to the necessary spells that draws players to these classes--take away that versatility and you gut the core purpose of clerics (and to a lesser extent, druids) in 3E: to have access to the boring-yet-crucial spells when needed, and access to the fun spells all the time.

 

[darkbard]

certainly, i agree forceuser. but my point is that since clerics would probably always have spells like hold person prepared instead of lesser restoration, does it matter to limit their spellcasting to a sorcerer mechanic. that is, if they never prepare other spells, aren't clerics limiting themselves to this mechanic anyway? sure, there are the occasions when a cleric will prepare a spell like lesser restoration to help his comrades recover after a fight with an ability damage-inclictor. but these situations tend to happen after the fact, rather than the cleric having the spell prepared ahead of time for such usage. wouldn't it be better to just carry a few choice scrolls for situations like this and have the flexibility of spontaneous casting?

 

[ForceUser]

certainly, i agree forceuser. but my point is that since clerics would probably always have spells like hold person prepared instead of lesser restoration, does it matter to limit their spellcasting to a sorcerer mechanic. that is, if they never prepare other spells, aren't clerics limiting themselves to this mechanic anyway? sure, there are the occasions when a cleric will prepare a spell like lesser restoration to help his comrades recover after a fight with an ability damage-inclictor. but these situations tend to happen after the fact, rather than the cleric having the spell prepared ahead of time for such usage. wouldn't it be better to just carry a few choice scrolls for situations like this and have the flexibility of spontaneous casting?

No. Unless your world has magic shops where PCs can buy multitudes of scrolls whenever they need them, keeping scrolls on hand to deal with such problems is not a viable long-term strategy. Scrolls are great in a pinch, but they are not a substitute for having the spells on your list. Sure, a cleric's not going to keep lesser restoration prepared (who would? it's highly situational), but it is the quintessential "morning after" spell. Denying it to clerics by only allowing the class a sorcerer's spells known progression is denying the cleric his basic role in the party. Given the need for those situational spells that the cleric and druid lists teem with, it would radically change the dynamic of the game to force clerics and druids to choose between fun spells and necessary spells to be placed on their lists forevermore. What you'd have, essentially, would be the favored soul, a class whose healing role is expressly stated as being secondary to that of the cleric's. It certainly wouldn't break the game to use this UA variant, and it does create interesting challenges. But it's wise to acknowledge that if one uses that variant they are significantly limiting the healing resources of the standard group of PCs in a standard campaign.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

And, the little argument above me (for several posts) is forgetting the fact that in both the miniatures handbook and the Complete Divine they thought it important enough to fill a few pages with a divine caster who acts in many ways as a cleric.

My point? Clerics are good for some people ... Favored Souls are good for others. Neither is perfect, which is why it is okay to have both.

 

[ForceUser]

And, the little argument above me (for several posts) is forgetting the fact that in both the miniatures handbook and the Complete Divine they thought it important enough to fill a few pages with a divine caster who acts in many ways as a cleric.

My point? Clerics are good for some people ... Favored Souls are good for others. Neither is perfect, which is why it is okay to have both.

Actually, I'm not forgetting that argument, I'm ignoring it. What you say is true, but it wasn't germane to our dialog.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

But it's wise to acknowledge that if one uses that variant they are significantly limiting the healing resources of the standard group of PCs in a standard campaign.

No necessarily. Looking at the spell allotments, at many levels the amounts of spells are equal to the clerics. Yes, the favored soul is occasionally one level behind as far as getting that next spell level, but often they cast more spells than the cleric does. But in general, they both have equitable amounts of spells per day witha few variations. As long as the favored soul puts a healing spell in his known spells list, they should be on par with the cleric. Having said that, even if the favored soul puts a healing spell at each level, that always gives him a minimum of two additional spell to cast of that level. And at 20th level, the favored soul would have 9 healing spells and 42 other other spells at their disposal. [Ignoring Cantrips, of course] That's not too bad, in my opinion.

I hear the argument of the favored spell being limited. And its undeniable. A cleric can cast any spell in the book. The cleric is much more versitile. But the cleric is not automatically a better healer. In many cases the favored soul can cast more spells and thus can out heal the cleric. Again, I reassert that it is more a matter of flavor and personal taste than it is of game mechanics. It is possible to make a favored soul who does an absolutely incredible job of healing! And I would guess that a favored soul of Pelor would be just that kind of guy.

 

[ForceUser]

I should clarify--when I say "healing," I'm not talking about simply healing hit point damage. Sure, a spontaneous divine caster will be fine at that. I'm talking about ability score damage, negative effects such as fear, blindness/deafness, curses, negative energy drain, missing limbs, insanity, fatigue/exhaustion, disease, poison, and raising people from the dead. Unless a spontaneous divine caster devotes his entire spell list to dealing with these negative effects (unlikely), the party using the UA variant darkbard wants to use is going to be losing a significant amount of their healing resources. This has a huge impact because it severely limits the party's ability to deal with such conditions. Many classes can heal hit point damage--that's not the issue. The issue is the loss of the ability to deal with the whole spectrum of negative effects that clerics (and to a lesser extent, druids) are needed to deal with. This is what places the favored soul firmly in the camp of "secondary healer."

 

[FEADIN]

unearthed arcana introduces an alternate mechanic to handle clerics and druids much as a sorcerer. in essence, the cleric [or druid] loses the versatility of the complete spell list in return for a core group of spells at each spell level plus domain spells; these core and domain spells can be cast in any combination, just as a sorcerer. the trade-off is ostensibly that though the cleric loses versatility, it makes up for this by increased punch [need six blesses a day? no problem. four magic weapons? piece of cake.].

personally, i love this option. in fact, it has been my experience that clerics tend to rely on a core list of spells from day to day anyhow [even with spontaneous healing, etc.], so the trade-off the cleric makes is minimal. from a flavor perspective, it also sits better with me that an agent of a divine power can call upon the power to work a limited number of miracles. the idea of filling the shopping cart with miracles [hmmm... today i think i'll need to bless some water, command a couple of times and perhaps cast sanctuary!] ahead of time never seemed to work from a flavor perspective.

sure, this may increase the need for planning a bit: your character doesn't know lesser restoration, so you better stock up on scrolls since you can't just swap out a cure wounds spell to restore your barbarian buddy's sapped strength. but i think that's a good thing.

what are your opinions or experiences? am i missing something with what i think to be an under-utilized alternative?

In the complete divine you have a feat that allows to swap spells for domain spells, as for healing, when you take it you designate a domain, you can take it for each of your domains.
Limited but in the way you want to go maybe.
When we where playing add2 the house rule was to not make a list for clerics, access at every spell in the list, it was not unbalancing, but now

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

And now, cut to this scenario:
A city hires the party to hunt down a fugitive that they then trace to a cave due east where he is holed up in. After doing their research about the cave, they learn it is inhabited by many dangerous animals and some monstrous humanoids, but absolutely no mention of undead. Their target is of course powerful enough (ie high level) to survive in such an environment. The party buys the supplies that may be necessary and heads off.
Skipping ahead, they corner the fugitive, he refuses to come peacefully, and a fight ensues. Now, image perhaps he's a wizard with acess to coonjuration ort necromancy spells. Or maybe he's really a vampire, but no one was aware of it. At the end, they have overcome their foe, but half the party has been level drained to the point that trying to venture any further or return back, would be guaranteed suicide if they were to run into even one random encounter appropriate for the area. The cleric didn't pick up any scrolls of restoration, nevermind neg. plane protection, based on the info. the party gathered. "No problem," the cleric says, "we'll just rest here and I'll pray for the ability to restore your unnatural wounds." But wait, this game is using the spontaneous casting variant rules... So, I guess the party's just screwed. Shame on the cleric for not expending one of his 5 or 6 spells known of that level on a spell he'll almost never need to use. What was he thinking?!

Seriously, why is it so hard to imagine a cleric gaining spells the way the PHB describes it. The cleric goes to pray, and asks his god: "Oh noble Heironious, beacon of light to all of those with good and honorable hearts, please grant me the power to heal my comrades, to bring down holy flames upon those would go against your will,..." and so on and so forth. Makes perfect sense to me.