The Stakes of Classifying Games as Rules Lite, Medium, or Heavy?

Thomas Shey

Legend
By the same token, anyone who’s likely to be disrupted by something that deviates from traditional play is likely already aware of such.

No. People who play a lot of trad games may very well not have a clue how different other games can be. You see examples of that around here all the time. Not long ago I saw someone who did not realize how many generic, non-D&D based games there are.

Its much, much easier to live in a bubble as a D&D player in particular, than it is to do so as a FATE player. Its probably not impossible but it requires a much more unusual entry into the hobby and almost determined desire to ignore other elements of it. Someone can come in through D&D, on the other hand, and have no idea how different, say, Shadowrun and the The Sprawl are.

Like, anyone who actually has the opinion “I hate meta-currencies” isn’t some wide-eyed novice. As such, they can do their own research rather than expecting the book to cater to them.

Expressed that way, no, but can someone who's been in the hobby a long time have the opinion "I don't want to be doing anything that my character wouldn't know they're doing" without realizing how common it is? Absolutely. At most they know they ignore the half-hearted gestures toward such things some games make, without being aware how necessary they are for some more guided games to work right (just in a relatively old and traditional game, I doubt its possible to ignore those and have Masterbook work for you).

I’ll add that I’m currently reading Heart: The City Beneath, and although it doesn't have any overt warnings along the lines you seem to want, it does include a section about the differences from Heart to more traditionally oriented games. I don’t think Heart is alone in that; many such games go out of their way to explain how they're different.

None do it so overtly as like a cover label, but many tend to address the issue.

That's better than nothing, but I think at least in their advertising it would warrant more explanation there at least in very broad strokes. Otherwise its at least a case of "buy this game to find out whether your players would want nothing to do with it." There are other options in games that get a range of reviews, but that's not the case for all of them by any means.
How can anyone know it would be disruptive? How can designers predict how any gaming group will use their product? My players took some getting used to more narrative games, but it certainly wasn’t disruptive socially. I can imagine that if there was some overt warning marking a game as “different” then maybe one or more of them would have been less inclined to even try.

I gave a simple and straightforward example with Momentum earlier. Do I think this is a problem that a designer can reasonably predict? Yes, I absolutely do.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
Games should clearly explain how they should be played and run including best practices and play assumptions. The marketing copy should clearly say what the game is about.

What I disagree with is that games need to position themselves in regards to a changing dominant play culture and provide warning labels about controversial mechanics or player/GM dynamics. Do you realize how fraught such an endeavor would be for designers who do not hold the dominant play culture in very high regard? You're basically asking people to sign up for the firing squad.

You are also asking for a text that could end up in the hands of a completely new player to start with "Here are all the ways this game is weird".
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
Games should clearly explain how they should be played and run including best practices and play assumptions. The marketing copy should clearly say what the game is about.

What I disagree with is that games need to position themselves in regards to a changing dominant play culture and provide warning labels about controversial mechanics or player/GM dynamics. Do you realize how fraught such an endeavor would be for designers who do not hold the dominant play culture in very high regard? You're basically asking people to sign up for the firing squad.

I'm not sure I've claimed that, since what I'm recommending is largely your first sentence here. If you're hostile to the idea this might be more necessary when moving away from the general thrust of the market, well, I don't know what to tell you; as I said, people who have more minority tastes in anything are pretty aware to watch for the Same Old Thing. As someone who's at least some minority taste myself (I'm used to watching for 5e derived games and discarding them) I don't think I'm particularly describing anything from a position of majoritarian convenience.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Then I guess we're done. It seems to me there's a big difference between "This disrupts a groups social dynamic" and "this is a thing the group doesn't like", and if you can't see the difference, don't see as we have much else to talk about.

Mod Note:

You know, the next time you want to disengage, just quietly walk away and don't respond. This kind of announcement looks like passive-aggressive manipulation, especially when your next post is re-engaging with the same user.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
No. People who play a lot of trad games may very well not have a clue how different other games can be. You see examples of that around here all the time. Not long ago I saw someone who did not realize how many generic, non-D&D based games there are.

Its much, much easier to live in a bubble as a D&D player in particular, than it is to do so as a FATE player. Its probably not impossible but it requires a much more unusual entry into the hobby and almost determined desire to ignore other elements of it. Someone can come in through D&D, on the other hand, and have no idea how different, say, Shadowrun and the The Sprawl are.

Sure, but so what? I’m not saying that the phenomenon you’re describing doesn’t exist, but I don’t think that games should be written to address it. People can do their own research if they want to try a game. Or they can just give it a try and decide if it’s for them or not.

Expressed that way, no, but can someone who's been in the hobby a long time have the opinion "I don't want to be doing anything that my character wouldn't know they're doing" without realizing how common it is? Absolutely. At most they know they ignore the half-hearted gestures toward such things some games make, without being aware how necessary they are for some more guided games to work right (just in a relatively old and traditional game, I doubt its possible to ignore those and have Masterbook work for you).

If a person is so ingrained that they have that opinion that they only want to make decisions in character, then I don’t think that’s a common enough concern to address, and I think it’s on that person to make their own decisions. Like the idea that one of the bullet points on the back cover would be “Players will make 90% of their decisions in character, and 10% as a player“ seems absurd to me.

That's better than nothing, but I think at least in their advertising it would warrant more explanation there at least in very broad strokes. Otherwise its at least a case of "buy this game to find out whether your players would want nothing to do with it." There are other options in games that get a range of reviews, but that's not the case for all of them by any means.

No way would I agree that they should market it as such. Not unless that was the smart move to ship more units. But since I don’t think that’s the case, I don’t think it’d be a smart move.

The rules should explain the game and how it’s meant to be played. Any promo material or back cover copy may comment on the general practices or goals of play and similar.

I gave a simple and straightforward example with Momentum earlier. Do I think this is a problem that a designer can reasonably predict? Yes, I absolutely do.

Do I think that a game that involves a team mechanic should talk about how some people don’t know how to function as a team? No, not really. Not in anything more than a passing way.

It’s an RPG book not a Life 101 book.
 


Aldarc

Legend
Sure, but so what? I’m not saying that the phenomenon you’re describing doesn’t exist, but I don’t think that games should be written to address it. People can do their own research if they want to try a game. Or they can just give it a try and decide if it’s for them or not.
"This boardgame is not Monopoly. You will not be rolling dice to go around a board in a linear circuit."

If a person is so ingrained that they have that opinion that they only want to make decisions in character, then I don’t think that’s a common enough concern to address, and I think it’s on that person to make their own decisions. Like the idea that one of the bullet points on the back cover would be “Players will make 90% of their decisions in character, and 10% as a player“ seems absurd to me.
How would one even measure that? And just imagine all the special pleading that would require to ignore all in-player decisions made as part of D&D play.

The rules should explain the game and how it’s meant to be played. Any promo material or back cover copy may comment on the general practices or goals of play and similar.
Yeah, TTRPG are not board games, but similar ideas apply. Market the game for what it is rather than what it isn't. Instruct people how to play the actual game and trust in the intelligence and capability of other people to run it correctly. If people don't like the game after playing - which may be for a myriad of reasons apart from in-character/out-of-character nonsense - then that's that.
 

I didn't say it was. Note I made a big distinction between the two kinds of problems. One is a problem of player expectation contrasted with what the game is giving you, the latter an problem of designer expectation with what the players at the other end are like. I might have opinions about what sorts of design are liable to into problems more often (which contrary to some people in this discussion I don't think is a trivial issue) but there's a big difference between the two.
OK, you are drawing a cognizable distinction, at least in this case, but I don't think it matters that much. I can reformulate my observation to avoid said distinction, and the same questions arise. Why is it that D&D's PC/GM fiction ownership and direction paradigm privileged? Surely THAT is of the same 'kind' as PbtA-style game's fiction ownership paradigms, yet one is labeled as dangerous, the other is benign in your telling. I'm perfectly willing to accept evidence that somehow playing an RPG where the players get to participate in the fiction (or other models that aren't exactly D&D-like in some degree) is 'disruptive', but I am very suspicious of simply accepting it as 'obvious' or any such thing. Many people think their opinions are 'obvious facts' or 'common sense' merely because they represent a lens through which they see the world.
Which is what I'm talking about in the second category.
I wasn't talking about either category at this point, I was simply agreeing that some types of games, and probably D&D-like games (in some sense) might be in this category, are very common and that publishers might reasonably assume that it is likely their audience for new game X is familiar with that paradigm and take more effort to carefully draw the distinctions between it and X. This is regardless of where in the game these distinctions fall, though I again don't disagree with you that play process and authority matters are more fundamental than 'how hit points work' and such (but very often the later kinds of things are cited as burning issues, so they are not without import, far from it).
I think the first is far more critical, though, and I think, if anything, game designers are more likely to make assumptions about it than the second. I think this is likely because just seeing other designs will tell you a lot of people seem to carry certain expectations or wants different from what you're giving them, and its probably doing nobody any favors to not let them know that.
I would simply state that I think if you write a 'D&D-like game', again in some general sense, you would be well advised to also tell people what the roles and process are in that game. Actually, one of the big problems I have with that general category of games is how UNCONSCIOUS they are of their strong assumptions and whatnot. There are all these potent social elements inhered into them without any analysis or explication whatsoever. So, I actually want to turn the tables on you and suggest that 'traditional' (not that I like the word) RPGs desperately need to be more self-reflective. Many of them never really cleanly state outright what they expect, whereas ANY PbtA or other story-focused type of game will almost invariably lay it all right out on the table from page 1! Read Dungeon World, you can get a free download of the PDF, you will instantly see that. You will be hard-pressed to find an 'indie game' which doesn't do the same. Heck, they have to or else they will be mangled in play!
But going in with different expectations about how players interact with each other, and with GMs is both easier to do, and far more problematic to fail to explain.
Again, I don't see why this is something that only one group of games is obliged to look at, and again I don't believe the type of games you are referring to generally fail to do this.
(There is a weird in-between case you can argue about power relationships between GMs and players, but I think what I'm talking about is more related to whether a GM is expected to have an adversarial, supporting, or somewhere in between relationship, That's only liable to disappear if there's no meaningful GM role at all, far as I can tell.)
See, in the end, I don't think the roles are really different at any table that ACTUALLY WORKS. It may be that in some games, rarely but I've experienced it, you really just buy the popcorn and sit back and acquiesce to get fed a story. This is rare however, but because the REAL expectations, or maybe we should say REQUIREMENTS, to make a game work are not even known by the game authors of most 'trad' games all these weird semi-unworkable arrangements arise.

Honestly, ONE WAY, not the way I normally do, but a way, to explain D&D 4e, is as a traditional game that is acutely self-aware and goes some way to describe this relationship. In other words, you CAN play it as a standard variation of D&D, and not as a story game (though I know @pemerton will point out certain areas where you cannot square it with that, its a weird beast of a game). This was my initial impression of the game and reaction to it was "interesting, this game is very self-aware, unlike D&D generally." You see that in the way the rules are designed for good game play as a prime consideration. You can also see it in the various 'structure of play' areas, and 4e actually spent a good bit of time on those. I believe THIS is actually the burning heart of what was objected to about the game. GMs saw within it a kind of a mirror reflecting back at them a view of both how they are actually playing, and of what the flaws are in the generally assumed D&D (IE as 5e would have it, or 3.x, or 2e) play structure. I guess they didn't like what they saw in a lot of cases!
 

Yeah, TTRPG are not board games, but similar ideas apply. Market the game for what it is rather than what it isn't. Instruct people how to play the actual game and trust in the intelligence and capability of other people to run it correctly. If people don't like the game after playing - which may be for a myriad of reasons apart from in-character/out-of-character nonsense - then that's that.
People ARE picky about games, that's for sure. I'm not even just talking about RPGs. In the past 3 months I've bought FIVE 'board' games to play with my wife. One game she adores, the other 4: One is just Canasta with a couple weird wild cards and custom suits; another she hates because it has dice and must be 'all luck' (its actually a reasonably clever game of risk management that utilizes some averaging dice); A third one she hates because you have to push the cards down the 'path' as you play (Morels, it seems like a great game, but I will never get to play a 2nd time); and I think she found 7 Wonders: Duel to be a bit complex (it is, for all it is supposedly a CUT DOWN version of the original game there's quite a bit going on, but I was impressed that they managed to achieve a high degree of playability nevertheless).

Picky picky picky picky. Honestly, I get tired of all the pickiness people evince on this subject, lol. I have literally never sat down to an RPG and rejected the experience based on anything to do with the game itself. I have preferences, but IMHO if there's a danger from classifying games in ANY direction it is that it creates grist for the picky hater mill. Play, and be grateful you have people to play with and a game to play.
 

pemerton

Legend
I mean, sure, nobody can say that one or another group is not going to have an issue with any certain game. I am just not going to be convinced that there's any more danger of this happening with momentum than it is with hit points or Vancian spell casting.
I read it as them particularly talking about Momentum being a shared resource and how one player might use up more than their share of it, causing problems if the players weren't good at balancing that. (Are there spotlight issues in other games?). Vancian magic (vs. other magic systems) doesn't seem to involve interparty sharing in that same qualitative sort of way to me.
The issue with by-the-book Momentum is that it assumes players have a balanced approach to dealing with and trusting each other's judgment in a way that makes a shared resource make sense. That's a heck of a big assumption, both by personal experience and by listening to other people talk about games over the years. And if its not true, its a big failure state.
I can't comment on 3E or 5e D&D as I don't know them well enough.

But in AD&D, played in a fairly mainstream "party vs dungeon/adventure" style, hit points and spell slots absolutely are a shared resource for the group. If the players with the fighters have their PCs hang back, allowing damage to fall on the lower hp PCs, that hurts the whole group. If the players of the casters misplay their spells, or treat them "selfishly" as their personal resource, that hurts the whole group. It's no different, in this respect, from any other cooperative game where individual players have to make judgements about their own positions which will influence outcomes for the whole of the table.

I will add: this isn't theoretical. I've played at D&D tables where there were players who didn't have a clue about how to make these sorts of decisions in a group-supporting way, and it showed in play and it made play bad. And it caused interpersonal issues - not big ones (but then why would momentum-sharing cause big issues - it's just a game!), but noticeable ones. Just as can happen in any other cooperative game.

To finish: I've certainly had partners in whist-style games get irritated at me for playing poorly or carelessly or selfishly and thus jeopardising the position of the partnership. Does that mean that all decks of cards should come with a warning that playing partnership games in a certain way might jeopardise your friendships? Or do we assume that sensible human beings can negotiate these social issues using their own experience and common sense?
 

Remove ads

Top