The Star Pact Handicap

[Nifft]

Unrelated note--Looking more closely at the Rods due to reading this thread, it strikes me that Rod of Reaving will allow a level 5 (or whatever level you get the Rod) Warlock to kill minions instantly of arbitrarily high level. Forget the Cleave-your-friend-to-hit-the-minion strategy, this is more effective and safer too!

Thing is, popping a minion is usually a waste of a Warlock's action. Minions are so weak even Defenders, Leaders and Controllers can kill them.

You're a Striker. Your job is to kill the big thing behind the minions. IMHO minion-popping is excusable if you have a Rod of Corruption, and you're popping the minion in order to spread your curse to the BBEG hiding behind them, but otherwise it's just a waste.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Have you perhaps thought that a star pact warlock with decent int (he's not going to have a 10 here, guys), but with primary stats con and cha, gains a lesser benefit on these powers in return for his versatility in choosing powers that affect numerous defenses, pays for this versatility by losing out on crazy high pact bonuses, and this is in turn balanced by those powers having better pact bonuses than the other two pacts, and a star pact warlock who maximizes con or cha and int gains a benefit of good pact bonuses at the cost of power selection?

I can get versatile attacks while focusing exclusively on either Con or Cha.

Spend some more time looking through the Warlock power list and trying this stuff. I think you'll see the light.

"... of Hastur!", -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

Have you perhaps thought that a star pact warlock with decent int (he's not going to have a 10 here, guys), but with primary stats con and cha, gains a lesser benefit on these powers in return for his versatility in choosing powers that affect numerous defenses, pays for this versatility by losing out on crazy high pact bonuses, and this is in turn balanced by those powers having better pact bonuses than the other two pacts, and a star pact warlock who maximizes con or cha and int gains a benefit of good pact bonuses at the cost of power selection?

I personally like all 3 pacts.

Maybe not 10 Int, but clearly she will not have more than 13 Int if she wants competitive Con and Cha, and, more important by far than the starting stats once you actually start advancing, she won't ever be raising Int except at the mandatory 11 and 21 bumps. The difference between 10 and 13 Int is just a +1 (at Paragon it's a +2, then back to +1 again at Epic). The Cha/Int Star Warlock will have +8 more than than 10 Int (eventually 12 at Epic) Warlock and +7 more than the 13 Int (eventually 15 at Epic) Warlock. Unlike 0 to 1, that's a hugely noticable change. If you aren't going to be raising Int because you're Con/Cha, you almost might as well have 10 (though the 13 can be nice for feat prereqs)--that's where the biggest boosts come from.

Yes, you can absolutely play the Con/Cha Star Warlock anyway, (though due to the paucity of actual bonuses for picking Star powers, you were probably better off being one of the other pacts and dipping Star, but not by so much that it's unplayable). And you can play a Str/Wis Cleric with no Charisma.

However, it is insulting and blatantly false to ascribe stupidity or inability to understand the 4e ruleset as the motive of the people who have noticed these points and are posting about it here. Everyone knows that you can be bumping up two stats each level--people in this thread don't think that stat raises work like in 3e. But you can't raise three stats per level. So you miss out on quite a bit by raising both Cha and Con, and the other two pacts need not.

The solution to the complaints of a 'Star Pact Handicap', of course, is to creatively design a Star Warlock who only uses either Con or Cha, something that there is more than enough design space to do with just the powers in the PH (and it'll be even easier when the Arcane sourcebook comes out). And if you can't or won't do that, the Con/Cha option is out there too.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I can get versatile attacks while focusing exclusively on either Con or Cha.

Spend some more time looking through the Warlock power list and trying this stuff. I think you'll see the light.

"... of Hastur!", -- N

Indeed. And sometimes it's better not to have a versatile focus on defenses. For instance, Will is the weakest defense in most enemies in the MM. Also, the Divine Oracle PP lets you roll twice vs Will defense. A Tiefling Star Warlock who rolls twice on fear attacks (and adds +1 of course) is really best served by having as many attacks as humanly (or tieflingly) possible target Will.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Thing is, popping a minion is usually a waste of a Warlock's action. Minions are so weak even Defenders, Leaders and Controllers can kill them.

You're a Striker. Your job is to kill the big thing behind the minions. IMHO minion-popping is excusable if you have a Rod of Corruption, and you're popping the minion in order to spread your curse to the BBEG hiding behind them, but otherwise it's just a waste.

Cheers, -- N

Well, remember, it does mean that a level 5 Warlock can be popping a level 25 minion--it gives those people with the minion troubles something better to use than Cleave.

But even beyond that, it's only a Minor Action, and it gives you a bonus to hit (+2 with the right feat). I can easily see a Warlock deciding to sacrifice the minor damage boost from Cursing the solo in order to Curse a minion, kill it, grab the +2 to hit, and then turn around and smack the solo with her real power that turn, with a shiny free +2. The to-hit boost is often more useful than the damage boost.

 

[Eldorian]

I can get versatile attacks while focusing exclusively on either Con or Cha.

Not consistently over all levels. If both your Con and Cha are high, every warlock power is useful.

Although, there is one thing that rather annoys me. There are almost always more infernal powers than the other two pacts. I think they should have just thought up a 4th pact and had one of each maybe. Or had powers that are like eldritch blast and are no pact and with choice in stat.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Not consistently over all levels. If both your Con and Cha are high, every warlock power is useful.

Although, there is one thing that rather annoys me. There are almost always more infernal powers than the other two pacts. I think they should have just thought up a 4th pact and had one of each maybe. Or had powers that are like eldritch blast and are no pact and with choice in stat.

This also annoyed me. And particularly, they would often have two Infernal powers on the same level that the Star Warlock gets a Con-based power, leaving little room to manoeuvre for a Cha-based Warlock at that level, of either stripe. Still, I would often like the Fey Pact at that level tolerably well, and with the Arcane sourcebook, we'll have more leeway.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

2 Observations:
- Only encounter powers grant a pact-specific benefit (based on Intelligence)

- There are several levels where either Star or Fey has more powers on their side. Infernal still seems to come out top, but not by that much.
At higher levels, there seems to be only one power for each pact.

---

My impression so far is that it's not a bad choice to start with a base 15 in your primary ability scores, and ensure that your racial ability modifier likes on that ability score. But only play experience will tell if this is really sufficient and if you haven't to focus more.

 

[Nifft]

Well, remember, it does mean that a level 5 Warlock can be popping a level 25 minion--it gives those people with the minion troubles something better to use than Cleave.

No, because that's not going to happen "in real life". If you're seeing level 25 minions at character level 5, you have a bad DM who is doing bad things to you, and doing them badly.

It's a situation you should explicitly not worry about.

But even beyond that, it's only a Minor Action, and it gives you a bonus to hit (+2 with the right feat). I can easily see a Warlock deciding to sacrifice the minor damage boost from Cursing the solo in order to Curse a minion, kill it, grab the +2 to hit, and then turn around and smack the solo with her real power that turn, with a shiny free +2. The to-hit boost is often more useful than the damage boost.

Sure, that would be nice, but it doesn't actually work: you get a +2 bonus to an a d20 roll on your next round. This annoys me because Doomsayer's Action seems like it could give you a HUGE bonus on your Action Point action, but it does not.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rystil Arden]

No, because that's not going to happen "in real life". If you're seeing level 25 minions at character level 5, you have a bad DM who is doing bad things to you, and doing them badly.

It's a situation you should explicitly not worry about.

Hey, those people with the minion blues don't care about that, though--they're looking for the most illustrative example of minion hijinks, and this is the best one I've seen so far.

Sure, that would be nice, but it doesn't actually work: you get a +2 bonus to an a d20 roll on your next round. This annoys me because Doomsayer's Action seems like it could give you a HUGE bonus on your Action Point action, but it does not.

Cheers, -- N

Yeah, that is annoying. You'll have to do it in the reverse order then--smack solo (with +2 from last round's minion barbeque), then curse minion to death. Repeat to taste.