The State of American Animation

[WizarDru]

Random side note: What's wrong with "Kim Possible"? KP is awesome. It's a show where the male and female lead are friends, it addresses at least the G-rated issues in a humorous way, the girls fight effectively while the guys are comic relief much of the time (KP and Shego as opposed to Drakken and Ron), and it has wonderful writing. I'd put Kim Possible up against, say, "Sailor Moon" as shows aimed at the same audience, and KP comes out worlds ahead as far as I can tell.

I don't love every episode, but then, I'm not a teenager, so it ain't really aimed at me.

Don't look at me, I was recommending the show as good, light fare. My daughter has a KP backpack and lunchbag, as well as a few toys. And I happen to think that their episode poking fun at Everquest was pretty darned funny. For that matter, any show with Ricardo Montalban doing Senor Senior (and his son Senor Junior)...well, that's all right by me.

 

[mojo1701]

Don't look at me, I was recommending the show as good, light fare. My daughter has a KP backpack and lunchbag, as well as a few toys. And I happen to think that their episode poking fun at Everquest was pretty darned funny. For that matter, any show with Ricardo Montalban doing Senor Senior (and his son Senor Junior)...well, that's all right by me.

As long as she doesn't scream: SENOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOR!

 

[Chun-tzu]

If the anime-lovers are telling me to watch this stuff as the prime examples of the genre, and then it turns out to be drivel (or not drivel but not to my taste), that's going to give me certain baseline assumptions for the genre. I'd suggest that there needs to be a group of anime advocates advocating the good stuff.

The difficulty there, of course, is that people have different tastes. I have, however, seen numerous threads on this very board where posters have asked for recommendations on s movies, anime, comics, and so on, and have gotten many good responses. It's a little more difficult with anime, however, as many recommendations may be for series that are not yet available in the States, and even the series that are available can be cost prohibitive to the casual viewer, especially compared to access to American movies and books.

My main point to anyone who has an overall negative or unfavorable view of anime is simply to keep an open mind, and consider that there may be far more to the medium than you've seen thus far.

 

[Chain Lightning]

Further, it's not really fair to drag shows like "Kim Possible" into the mix: it's a Disney production solidly aimed at tween girls, but with enough crossover appeal to reach some boys. It's not fair to accuse it of not being Alias...it wasn't meant to bear that weight.

Random side note: What's wrong with "Kim Possible"? KP is awesome. It's a show where the male and female lead are friends, it addresses at least the G-rated issues in a humorous way, the girls fight effectively while the guys are comic relief much of the time (KP and Shego as opposed to Drakken and Ron), and it has wonderful writing. I'd put Kim Possible up against, say, "Sailor Moon" as shows aimed at the same audience, and KP comes out worlds ahead as far as I can tell.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Where are you guys getting this from? When did I ever say "Kim Possible" is bad? I happen to like that show. And I do enjoy it over "Sailor Moon". I'm not comparing American animation's representation of female characters to that of live action shows like "Alias".

This is what I wrote:

There is though, another point. Even though there's lots of objectifying of women and perv cheesecake going on....they still do a few things concerning equality of representation better than a lot of American shows I know. You know that in America, its hard to pitch an action/adventure show where the main lead is a female? Next to impossible. Because so much is based on appealing to 7-10 year old boys to watch and buy the toys, the execs think boys won't buy girl dolls. Whatever......one of my favorite characters as a kid was Miria from the Robotech series. They only do lead females if its a musical or a slap stick/comedy show like "Power Puff Girls" or "Kim Possible".

What I am saying here is that: when it comes to Action/Adventure animation series in the U.S. (which are mostly based off toylines), its hard to pitch a show where the main character is female. Because I didn't want someone to retort with "that's not true, they have Power Puff Girls and Kim Possible". So I wrote ,"They only do lead females if its a musical or a slap stick/comedy show like "Power Puff Girls" or "Kim Possible".

I don't see how you think that means I don't like "Kim Possible". What my post said was that female characters (in American animtion) only get a fair shake in comedy/adventure , slapstick comedy, and Disney like musicals. Not in straight action/adventure. The thinking being, that there are shows done for boys and shows done for girls. But I'd like to think we can make action/adventure shows that are not gender specific. A show that is just for people. My point was that, this is what Japan has over the American animation industry. They have "Witch Hunter Robin" and such. We don't. And that's also tied to directy to the original postter's statement. That the American animation industry doesn't produce serious action/adventure. So how can females be represented poorly or fairly in an area that has no products to judge?

It's not fair to accuse it of not being Alias...it wasn't meant to bear that weight.

Don't worry, I know. Its a cartoon comedy aimed at young girls. What I accuse of not being "Alias" was "Catwoman" and "Elektra". Sorry if there was any confusion,but I thought I had written it clearly.

 

[Alzrius]

Not sure if you think this or not. But not all Japanese media demean women. Its mostly an amime thing. I watch Japanese TV a lot too, and I don't see it in their live action shows. I bring this up because I don't want people reading this to think that the whole of Japan are a bunch of sexist pigs. This latest generation of Japanese is different than that of the old school generation. I think the treatment of females in a lot of certain types of anime is due mostly to the makers catering to the horny weirdo geek boy market. Those guys above with the pillows. Unfortunately, that's what seems to get translated and brought to the states the most. Unfortunately.

I did my undergraduate comps on gender roles in anime. As a big fan of anime as a whole, it was somewhat depressing, because although I passed with high marks, the conclusion I pitched was that, as a general rule, anime was somewhat sexist.

This isn't due to any desire to malign or oppress women, but rather (as I found it) it was simply a reflection of the values of the parent culture. Likewise, this is only a generality, and didn't extend across all anime (Lina Inverse from The Slayers seems to be beyond that mold, for example). It wasn't even so much a case of "bimbos with big boobs" in anime, but rather the subtleties of the dynamics in relationships. The girls of El-Hazard were the examples I cited, since none of them seemed "empowered" in the feminist sense of the word.

Ultimately, this didn't detract from my enjoyment of anime though, since one must take the bad with the good.

 

[Alzrius]

Naruto hasn't even come stateside yet, has it? Yeah, yeah, people have been watching it in Japan or off the net for ages, but I don't have that option.

I don't either, I just borrow from friends who do.

In terms of coming stateside, it was just announced in Anime Insider that it will premier on Cartoon Network this fall. Even if AI is wrong, ShoPro Entertainment (an intermediary licensing company) has announced their acquisition for the rights to Naruto (since ShoPro is merging with Viz, that may influence what happens) so very soon now, someone will release it domestically.

Only read the first 3-4 manga volumes myself. Seems interesting, if a bit quirky. (Hardcore ninja violence starring cute widdle adolescents. yeesh)

You need to read just a little further to see that veneer being pulled back. Get to the end of the final battle with Zabuza, and then see what you think.

 

[Chain Lightning]

I really like "Naruto". I've only seen maybe six episodes. But I liked 'em.

I was talking with friends of mine and we discussed similarities in story structures. Like, when you say "this is is like that but with this instead". For instance: "Magnificient Seven" is "Seven Samurai", but set in the wild west. "Bug's Life" is "Seven Samurai", but with bugs.

With that, we said, "Naruto" is "Harry Potter", but with ninjas instead of wizards. You guys agree?

 

[WizarDru]

What I am saying here is that: when it comes to Action/Adventure animation series in the U.S. (which are mostly based off toylines), its hard to pitch a show where the main character is female. Because I didn't want someone to retort with "that's not true, they have Power Puff Girls and Kim Possible". So I wrote ,"They only do lead females if its a musical or a slap stick/comedy show like "Power Puff Girls" or "Kim Possible".

Now I'm the one who must not have been clear.

I wasn't directly responding solely to you, but pointing out that Kim Possible is exactly what it was meant to be. The real issue is the target audience: young boys. Action shows appeal much more to boys than girls. Most american animation, when classified as Serious, are usually action-based shows. The Batman is a reasonably good show (it's not as good as B:TAS, but it stands on it's own well enough). But it's clear to me that my daughter is much more interested in the character's inter-relationships than in the fights, which I think captivates my son more. She likes to understand the villain's motivations, his plans and the plot, more than being concerned with individual powers or actions scenes. A show like Kim Possible de-emphasizes the action in favor, usually, of the comic sequences or the relationships of the characters...by design, because they know the target audience enjoys that.

Could boys respond well to an action show with a female lead? Possibly, but I tend to doubt it. Action-based female characters usually only show up on enemble shows, like any Power Rangers show, Exosquad, TMNT, Jackie Chan Adventures, Teen Titans and Justice League, to name a few. And notice that while the shows may give them equal time-share, the toys based on the show clearly do not. Challenge: try getting a Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl action figure from the Justice League toy-line. Oh, they exist....as 'chase' figures, one to a case, usually. (although, in fairness, the Martian Manhunter is pretty rare, too). Watch the commercials for the Teen Titans toy-line. The commercials would lead you to believe that there are only three members on the team...the boys. Oh, the girls are in the commercial...in a background shot, never highlighted or identified.

Now, I'm not saying this is bad or good. In fact, the individual shows highlight their female characters quite well. Justice League, for example, has some of the best female characters around, particularly Wonder Woman. Teen Titans has an excellent balance that appeals equally to boys and girls. Kids Next Door has virtually no difference between boys and girls, while a show like Samurai Jack paints women as equally capable (and usually equally dangerous) as the men. The idea, then, is that it's merely playing to its audience. Will this ever change? Should it? I have no idea.

Don't worry, I know. Its a cartoon comedy aimed at young girls. What I accuse of not being "Alias" was "Catwoman" and "Elektra". Sorry if there was any confusion,but I thought I had written it clearly.

LOL!!!! Brilliance.

 

[Desdichado]

My main point to anyone who has an overall negative or unfavorable view of anime is simply to keep an open mind, and consider that there may be far more to the medium than you've seen thus far.

Anime is not a medium; that's just a silly claim that shows a lack of understanding of what media is (and I've heard it in many other places as well.) It's a style, or perhaps a grouping of related styles.

And to recommend to someone that's been repeatedly burned by shows that aren't good that they "keep an open mind and try again" is a bit silly as well. Why can't you accept that some people simply may not like anime? That's another of my beefs with anime fans in general; many of them refuse to believe that people could not like anime, so they develop this misplaced bitterness against whatever they believe is "holding back" anime from more mainstream popularity. This view is totally wrong IMO.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Anime is not a medium; that's just a silly claim that shows a lack of understanding of what media is (and I've heard it in many other places as well.) It's a style, or perhaps a grouping of related styles.

And to recommend to someone that's been repeatedly burned by shows that aren't good that they "keep an open mind and try again" is a bit silly as well. Why can't you accept that some people simply may not like anime? That's another of my beefs with anime fans in general; many of them refuse to believe that people could not like anime, so they develop this misplaced bitterness against whatever they believe is "holding back" anime from more mainstream popularity. This view is totally wrong IMO.

Alright, perhaps medium isn't the best term for it. I don't think "style" is much better, though, as it's more vague than medium, and "genre" is also definitely incorrect, as anime covers a number of different genres. Anime covers a wide variety of styles and genres.

Nor did I ever recommend people "try again," because I recognized in that post that there are a lot of barriers to trying again. What I said was, consider that there's much more to anime than you've seen, and that it's not all just silly, or sexist, or whatever else you don't like about it. I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I'm saying there's more to anime than what many people have seen on American television.