The State of ENWorld (too important to go to Meta)

[Piratecat]

1) ENWorld is becoming overly clique-ish and insular, and if you aren't part of the in-group or cool group (the moderator's buddies), you feel unwelcome.

While I respect your opinion, I don't believe this to be accurate. As a whole EN World is almost certainly less clique-ish than it used to be, and I'm not aware of any moderator making people feel less welcome because they aren't part of the "cool" group. If you ever run into examples of this, shoot me an email so I can see if it's actually a trend.

 

[Crothian]

The biggest clique lately is the Hive, and it really hasn't been doing too well for a few months.

There's a new poster today who just asked a simple question on Constructs. He was given the most complete answers and even his follow up were dealt with accurately and thoroughly. I was very impressed even though this type of thing is not uncommon. People here seem to like to help others, especially new people to the boards and new to gaming.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Sounding a little bitter Whisperfoot...

Actually not as bitter as you might think. My work has actually met with reaasonably good reviews more often than not (something that never fails to amaze me). If there is bitterness from me, it comes from all the times that I've bought a product from another publisher, or watched the company that I work for release a new book that I find incredibly useful and well done, only to see someone tear it to shreds online and act personally insulted by it because of a few areas where it doesn't live up to their expectations. First it starts with one or two people who are always being negative, then it spreads to the ones who are glad they were warned about it and decide not to spend their hard earned money on it. Eventually you just get pages and pages of griping while other people who haven't had the chance to even look at it get turned off to it. Certain individuals here make the comic book guy look like a happy fanboy. I'm not saying that products shouldn't be discussed, but I'm saying that a lot of people go way overboard on the negative aspects. I try to look for the good and the useful in all the things I spend my money on and I am rarely disappointed.

There's also no system in place to make sure that every review posted is objective and accurate. I've read a number of product reviews by reviewers affiliated with this site that contain blatant inaccuracies and contain personal prejudgements about specific publishers that keep getting regurgitated from one review to the next. There are things I've read that are so inaccurate they can only be explained if the reviewer didn't actually read the product that they are reviewing. Any thought that the reviewer might have actually used the material in the book is right out the window

There's a new poster today who just asked a simple question on Constructs. He was given the most complete answers and even his follow up were dealt with accurately and thoroughly. I was very impressed even though this type of thing is not uncommon. People here seem to like to help others, especially new people to the boards and new to gaming.

This is completely true, and it always has been. Believe it or not, while my comments have been somewhat negative, they really only apply to a minority of people who are ruining it for everyone else. Noobs have always been treated extremely well here. People who post questions usually get responses, even if the same subject has come up hundreds of times before. The rules discussion forum is worhwhile, if overly nit picky. The publishers forum is also a great way to find out about new products that I might be interested in.

Overall I think ENWorld is a great place, and it is a far better place than other forums that belong to a certain well known RPG company. However, these forums are not very publisher friendly, or writer friendly, and it isn't very friendly to anyone who tries to keep a positive outlook on the creative endeavors of extraordinarily talented individuals who keep pumping out superior quality books only to have their efforts spat on. What's more is that while anyone can pan a product, there isn't really a system in place on these boards, other than other posters, to give another side of the argument. While there are certain people who keep on fighting the good fight, like MerricB, most have gotten tired of trying to buck the trend and just end up going elsewhere.

 

[Crothian]

I've read a number of product reviews by reviewers affiliated with this site that contain blatant inaccuracies and contain personal prejudgements about specific publishers that keep getting regurgitated from one review to the next. .

I really hope this isn't me if so people are always free to e-mail me and I'll try to do right by the product.

 

[LrdApoc]

However, these forums are not very publisher friendly, or writer friendly, and it isn't very friendly to anyone who tries to keep a positive outlook on the creative endeavors of extraordinarily talented individuals who keep pumping out superior quality books only to have their efforts spat on. What's more is that while anyone can pan a product, there isn't really a system in place on these boards, other than other posters, to give another side of the argument. While there are certain people who keep on fighting the good fight, like MerricB, most have gotten tired of trying to buck the trend and just end up going elsewhere.

I completely understand your position here. I agree that the criticisms are often harsh and not constructive.. amounting to rants and repeated "I was robbed ".. or "Company X did this just to ruin my game!" but really that is a problem with internet community sites in general, not just Enworld, because of the freedom annonimity allows posters.. they don't have to justify the statements, they just spout and others jump on the bandwagon.

If you feel there is a way to improve the quality of the staff reviewers I recommend speaking with them. Any professional critic (speaking as one by the way) understands they must verify and justify their comments. I personally am very receptive to comments from my readers regarding my positions and encourage them to disagree with me in a polite conversational way.

Also there is going to be some bias in every writers perspective.. that is the writer is talking, not listing a set of bullet points. The key is that the writer should express accurate facts and justify his opinions on those facts. I personally don't rely on reader or 'pro' reviews in my purchasing.. I prefer that old RPG standard.. word of mouth and shop read through. I know that the reviews are really valuable to a lot of the Enworld readers.. especially in the field of PDF where there is a great disparity in quality due to the ease of production.

I guess I have never picked up on an anti-creator vibe here. The forums mobs will bash the products but most reasonable members respond to the writers intelligently and encouragingly.. having an open discussion is key. The rants I just ignore.

As a writer and artist I have learned to never base my opinion on the comments of others. I don't value my work that way and I don't allow praise or pans to cloud my belief in my own work. That said I listen and consider each voice or comment in the perspective it deserves.. and improve where I can.. that's all I think you can expect here.

I maintain a positive attitude and do what I can to support those who have chosen the hard role of writing gaming products because as we all know this market is hardly large enough for WOTC, let alone the multitude of quality 3rd party developers.

(Sorry I just reread everything and it sounds preachy, but I think you're being overly critical of the whole community because of the rants of a small, very prolific group of members.)

 

[Elodan]

1) ENWorld is becoming overly clique-ish and insular, and if you aren't part of the in-group or cool group (the moderator's buddies), you feel unwelcome. I know I personally feel more welcome at that bastion of friendliness, RPG.net. Still, this is probably why posting might be up, but away from the actual general and gaming areas, but more in the clique-ish areas.

While I respect your opinion, I don't believe this to be accurate. As a whole EN World is almost certainly less clique-ish than it used to be, and I'm not aware of any moderator making people feel less welcome because they aren't part of the "cool" group. If you ever run into examples of this, shoot me an email so I can see if it's actually a trend.

I'm going to have to disagree with trancejeremy on this one and agree with PC (can I call you PC?). I've found that the messageboards have become less cliquish. People have been very welcoming and I've gotten good responses to my inquiries. As a result, my post count has sky-rocketed in the past six months.

 

[Darrin Drader]

I really hope this isn't me if so people are always free to e-mail me and I'll try to do right by the product.

No, it isn't you... as far as I know. I kind of gave up on the site sponsored reviews before you started doing them. Aren't you doing reviews of PDFs?

Anyway, I'm not naming names on this one. I suspect that the guilty parties know who they are and it's even possible that they've worked on improving their methods since I tuned out. It has actually been laughable at times. There's one reviewer who always seems to wait for one of the other reviewers to post his review, waits two or three days, and then posts his own review on the same product that essentially summarizes the table of contents of the book and then restates the exact same points that the previous reviewer has made - inaccuracies and all. Again, I'm not naming names.

Some reviewers are also doing a great job, but the problem is for the consumer to even be aware that the problem exists, let alone filter the good from the bad.

I completely understand your position here. I agree that the criticisms are often harsh and not constructive.. amounting to rants and repeated "I was robbed ".. or "Company X did this just to ruin my game!" but really that is a problem with internet community sites in general, not just Enworld, because of the freedom annonimity allows posters.. they don't have to justify the statements, they just spout and others jump on the bandwagon.

True enough. I'm probably taking a drag from the peace pipe on this one, but the ideal online community would have moderators that are less tolerant of product bashing.

 

[Olive]

The Culture - This one is going to get me beaten down, I'm sure. I know my opinions aren't always popular ones, but the culture around here seems to foster being argumentative rather than holding civil, intelligent conversations. It brings it out in myself too, so I'm not claiming innocense here. It's not everyone, of course, but it seems like differing opinions are immediately followed by antagonistic remarks rather than friendly debate. I can see why publishers would want to stay out of those kind of discussions, as it only serves to tarnish their names.

Not trying to beat on you, as I know a few others have already commented, but where else on the net has a less argumentative culture? I find this place amazingly civil, and the mods amazingly tolerant and friendly. The no religion/politics stuff is a godsend, AFAIAC.

 

[BSF]

I certainly haven't felt much cliqueishness in any of the forums. To be honest, if I did, I wouldn't continue to frequent the board. I really enjoy "hanging out" here. I think it has improved my games. Yes, the atmosphere has changed a bit. I don't often make it to the Hivemind/OT forum and I think I miss seeing a lot more of the different personalities that hang out here. I just don't have as much time to go through them every day. Lately, I don't even make it to the Publishers thread as often. The board slowdowns are a bummer, but I know that problem is being worked on. I have gotten to the point where I am not as excited to post into topics that I feel like I am scratched record on. That is unfortunate because perhaps I would have something to say that somebody new might want to hear? I have also found myself being disturbingly sucked in by negative topics. So, I am trying to avoid some of those topics lately.

EN World is a good place and I like it here. I can see what RangerWickett is saying because the atmosphere has changed somewhat. But, it is difficult for me to ascertain if this is cyclic change, or a change prompted by adjustments in the board overall. I lurked up until last July, so I don't have the same perspective as many people here.

 

[Olive]

While I respect your opinion, I don't believe this to be accurate. As a whole EN World is almost certainly less clique-ish than it used to be....

As soemone who's been a memer since the pantheon days, I can honestly say that ENWorld is as un-cliquey as it has ever been, and it's always been fairly good.

I started the thread in meta about average posts per day and the like, because I had a similar impression about a slow down to RW. I actually think it's mostly due to the off topic forum myself. I still get to read responses from authors, hear about the books and magazines that will take 2-4 weeks to get out here, and generally get good responses to my threads. And as a result, I'm happy! I find it wierd that I'm now an old hand, with a high postcount (relatively), as I still remember lots of people who used to post here who don'tr. I don't miss a lot of the people others miss, but it's still a bit different without them. Thankfully, there are lots of people here I really appreciate, some of whom are new. For example, humble minion and Inconsiquential-Al were greeat in my necromancer thread a few weeks back, Silveras has been very itneresting in a whole heap of threads and there's plenty of others who I don't alwways frequent the same threads as but are always interesting, like Buttercup. There are pelnty of others, but any attempt to give a wholescale list would mean i'd miss poeple who don't deserve to be missed.

Anyway, I think the problem is the distance form the original excitment of 3.0, a little bit of anti-3.5 angst (see Brown Jenkin's post), and a perliferation of new boards for specific publishers and the like. I've tried the others, and I keep coming back to this one myself, partly just because i like to waste time, and this board is one of the only ones that gets any kind of level of traffic necessary for me to keep avoiding my thesis.

The slow downs can be a pain, but all up, it's still my favourite site ont he web, but a factor of 100.