The surprise round and you

[Fleetwood C. DeVille]

The assassin creeps up upon the guard. He successfully stealths into range and points his trusty crossbow at his target. He pulls the trigger...."Wait. We have to roll for initiative.""Um, okay. I get a 6.""The guard gets a 20."So now: The guard goes first, but because he is surprised he cannot move, take an action or a reaction. When the assassin fires, does he get advantage on the attack roll and the free critical if he hits?Or put another way, does losing initiative negate the assassin's abilities?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Based upon a recent Sage Advice and from the opinions of many people here on the boards... the answer would be 'Yes'.

Based upon the personal rulings of many other people here on these boards who find that situation to be the utmost in stupidity and who aren't afraid to actually let the Assassin character use his abilities... the answer would be 'No'.

 

[discosoc]

I don't like the way surprise works in 5e, so I basically ignore it. If someone sneaks up on another person (or groups), everyone who successfully did so gets to take an action. Once that's done, we roll initiative.

 

[Fleetwood C. DeVille]

So if the assassin then decides not to attack and remains hidden, can he declare "Combat Over" and then restart combat hoping to roll higher the second time around?

 

[Ancalagon]

initiative is rolled when sometimes happens that tells everyone that a fight is just about to occur.

In this case the "something" is the crossbow bolt hitting (or maybe careening off a piece of armor) the guard in the back.

 

[Croesus]

The assassin creeps up upon the guard. He successfully stealths into range and points his trusty crossbow at his target. He pulls the trigger...."Wait. We have to roll for initiative.""Um, okay. I get a 6.""The guard gets a 20."So now: The guard goes first, but because he is surprised he cannot move, take an action or a reaction. When the assassin fires, does he get advantage on the attack roll and the free critical if he hits?Or put another way, does losing initiative negate the assassin's abilities?

My understanding is that during the surprise round, the assassin's abilities would be unaffected by the initiative roll, because they are dependent on the target not having acted yet in combat. Since the guard is surprised, he doesn't get to act in the surprise round, so when the assassin acts, his abilities work. Where initiative matters is that the assassin would not be able to act first in the second round of combat (the guard won the initiative roll), so the assassin's abilities would not work then.

Round 1 (surprise): Assassin is only character to act, so his attacks have advantage and score a crit if they hit.
Round 2 (normal): If Assassin wins initiative, his attacks still have advantage and score a crit, because the guard has not yet acted.
Round 2 (normal): If the guard wins initiative, Assassin no longer automatically gains advantage and critical hits, as the guard has acted.

 

[Fleetwood C. DeVille]

That's what I thought. Except it doesn't use the word "Act", it uses the word "turn". So the guard got a "turn" even though he couldn't "act".

 

[Oofta]

I would rule that the guard is not in combat until he is in a hostile situation. The assassin attacking starts combat.

Then again, I look at the rules as guidelines and in this particular case make a ruling based on the fact that the guard has no reason to be on his guard.

Of course that doesn't help if on initiative 21 the party's barbarian crashes into the room and tries to take the guards head off. In that case, the guard will no longer be considered surprised on initiative 5.

[EDIT] on second thought I have to re-read the rules on assassin and surprise rounds so ignore my third paragraph.

 

[Croesus]

That's what I thought. Except it doesn't use the word "Act", it uses the word "turn". So the guard got a "turn" even though he couldn't "act".

Ah, I see what you're saying and the letter of the rules support that interpretation. The guard gets a turn in the surprise round, before the rogue acts. The guard can't take any actions during that turn because he was surprised, but he did technically have a "turn". I expect I will continue to give the rogue his/her assassinate ability in the surprise round, since surprise doesn't happen all that often in my games (so it's not unbalancing), and because it's fun for the rogue.

 

[Hriston]

When the assassin fires, does he get advantage on the attack roll and the free critical if he hits?

If I remember correctly, the Assassin gets advantage on the attack as long as he doesn't need to reveal himself and is still unseen when he attacks, but he doesn't automatically get critical damage on a hit because the target is no longer surprised.

Or put another way, does losing initiative negate the assassin's abilities?

Yes, the Assassin's Assassinate feature is tied to him winning initiative, which he should usually do given that for Rogues Dexterity is the primary ability.