The Swordsman PrC

[Thomas Hobbes]

I know that I got rid of 3 levels of swordsman, but this will give a greater variety of rank 7 swordsmen since they will have a possibility of 13 other levels to improve virsitility rather then just 10. What do you think?

My gut reaction is I don't like it- just make it 10 levels like everything else. But then I wonder if I'm just being obessive compulsive about making it like everything else- either 5 or 10 levels. *shrug*

Thing's I'd like to see in the finished class: 10 levels, Block 4/day by 10th level, Retaliate, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Judge, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization (maybe. And with the obvious caveat that if they don't have regular weapon specialization, they get that instead). I also don't much like Two-Handed finesse- it seems to me just not to make sense. Wielding a greatsword with skill, yes, I can see that, but I can't see you waving it around like a rapier or a dagger. In semantics dexterity might work, but I don't see it working in mechanics. All "in my humble opinion," of course.

 

[Thels]

I'd really go for 10 levels. It requires level 15 for retaliate, whereas level 12 would be a bit low to my taste. There's enough to make 10 levels out of it. The diversity of 13 other levels doesn't seem to make much sense to me. There's more ways to make a diversive character than by giving it more levels.

For convenience, i'd recommend changing greater weapon focus to greater sword focus: When not wearing armor or shields, a swordsman receives greater weapon focus as a virtual feat for all swords for which the swordsman has weapon focus. If the swordsman already has greater weapon focus for some swords, the bonuses do not stack.

Twohanded Finesse is really crappy IMHO. First, it's not possible to wield something that big in a finesse way. Second, the swordsman is already receiving a lot from dexterity. Letting his attack rolls depend on them as well is way too overpowering. Retaliate goes through the roof like that. Normally, you need to both have a good str and a good dex for it to work.

I like the way you did Detect Chaos. Only it should be Ex, not Sp. Also, perhaps it's nice to make it a Sense Motive VS Bluff check, where each round that the swordsman has studied the target adds a +1 to the swordsman's modifier. Perhaps Detect Lies could work as well, at a higher level. Still, not much of the authority bonuses kicking in. Something like command might be nice.

3 Blocks/round would be enough. After that, the modifiers keep going down enough for it to be hardly usefull. Also, Epic attack rolls don't increment on Epic Levels, so why should Block Attack?

So, how about this? (Improved Disarm and Improved Sunder are virtual feats that only work while the swordsman is wearing no armor or shields and wielding a sword in two hands.)

1st - Block Attack 1/round, Detect Chaos
2nd - Uncanny Dodge
3rd - Greater Sword Focus
4th - Block Attack 2/round, Detect Lies
5th - Improved Uncanny Dodge
6th - Improved Disarm
7th - Block Attack 3/round, Unbending Mind
8th - Evasion
9th - Improved Sunder
10th - Retaliate, Command

 

[Mithreander]

I only wanted 7 levels, for the ranks are tattooed on a swordsmans forhead... with epic levels it would be really messy to figure out how many ranks a swordsman is (is that twenty tattos? What kind of jobs are available to a rank 20 swordsman? The same that are available for a rank 7?). Plus, when chellenging for a level, a swordsman of 7th rank would be a real chellenge since it would have no upper cap. I do not have an issue with going to level 10 (or 9 or 8 or 11 for that matter), but I do NOT want him to have Epic levels. The society of Riverwold is VERY structured, and there are ways to determine a persons ranks. All the classes (and prestige classes) have ranks to a certain number. Now if it's easier to except 10 as the number, then so be it.

I think that if the swardsman is going to be making sense motive checks then it should be a class skill.

You keep bringing up how the Swordsman is getting SO much from Dex? What's that? Tell me one thing that this prestige class is getting from dex that any other is not? Nothing that I can see! Even his skills only have 2 that are modified by dex.

With only his Dexterity, dodge, and expertise (which ANY character can get) to protect him (besides magical aid), and the ability to perhaps, at higher levels, block a MAXIMUM of 3 attacks at him a round from MELEE attacks (which he'll have to sacrifice some of his potential dextertiy to block since to-hit is based off of strength) if he gets lucky (since the attacks against him do not get penalties, but his blocks do), nothing else protects this character.

Let's break it down:

A character with a max dexterity of 20 (say he's a halfling, just to be silly), and a size modifier, placing all of his level bonuses into dex, at fighter/swordsman 5/3 he'll have a max AC of 23 (10 + 6 Dex + 1 Dodge + 5 Expertise + 1 Size). Oh, let's just say for laughs that he has an 18 strength for a maximum to hit from strength, he'll have the possibility of blocking one attack that would have hit him (which means it would have to beat a 23 on the to-hit roll to hit him) with a +5 weapon (He had a mage friend create it for him, and the mage friend only charged him for materials, and not for experience spent), weapon focus, size and the virtual Greater Weapon focus means he would get a +15 to beat that 23+ hit, so he only has a 55% chance at BEST to block that one attack.

Now, you say, what if he doesn't us expertise? Well then he'd have a max AC of 18 and have a much better chance of blocking ONE successfull attack, though a MUCH greater chance of being hit more.

Now, he's made it to 5/4 fighter/swordsman. His max AC is still the same (23) so now he can block TWO attacks against him. The first he gets +16 to block the first attack (60% chance AT BEST) and +11 to block the second (35% chance AT MOST). Great.

Now he's a 5/7. His AC is higher now since he could aford to have his mage friend make him some +6 gloves of Dexterity, and his mage friend is nice enough to make him +6 girdle of giant strength (once more only charging for Materials). He also has a ring of protection +2 (also half price) bracers of armor +5 and a necklace of natural armor +3 (All half price) giving him an AC of 36 with expertise. He would have 3 chances to block an successfull attack, or would he? +22 to block the first attack (30% chance), +14 to block the second (15% MAX), +9 for the third (Not a chance!). Even when not using expertice in the above instance: AC 31 +27 for the first block (80% chance of blocking this attack MAX!) +19 for the second (55% MAX) and +14 for the third (30% chance of blocking).

Now, what IF the sword finnesse was allowed, what impact would it have on the Block Attack? Answer NONE! With the higher Dex, his AC is raised and thus his target number to block is higher, which the plus to hit equalizes. So it makes NO difference other then the fact that he will now do less damage when he hits someone.

Now, when the swordsman is 10th (5th fighter), he'll want to have a low AC so that he CAN block all three attacks so he gets the AoOs. Well, okay, let's metagame: say he wants a 50% chance of blocking the last attack. No more use for expertise, so lets leave that out. Alright: he has a to-hit of +30 (+15 BAB +5 Sword + 1 Size +7 Strength +2 feats). Okay he figures that his AC can only be a MAX of 29. That way if someone hits him (gets a 29) for a third time, he'd have a +20 to block with a DC of 30, giving him a 50% chance to get that third attack of opertunity. Of course, creatures that are a CR 12 have much higher chances of hitting him then that, such as a kraken who gets 9 attacks, the last of which is at +23, so on an average would be getting a 33, so that lowers the Swordsmans chances to block the third attack by 15% (not to mention the other 5 attacks he'd have no chance of blocking).

I suppose my point is that his AC and his Block Attack work against eachother, not with eachother, so with the limits placed on block attack as they are now, they do not help as sinificantly as it would seem.

Needless to say, the only things you and I like about this class are as follows:

Detect Chaos (Ex)

Uncanny and imroved uncanny dodge (Ex)

virtual feats

Block Attack (Ex): Once per round, when a Swordsman is hit in combat by a melee attack, he may attempt a block attack (as a reaction) to negate the hit. The hit is negated if your block attack result is greater than the opponent's attack roll. (Essentially, the block attack becomes his Armor Class if it's higher than his regular AC.) The swordsman is only allowed to make block attacks when wielding a twohanded sword and not wearing armor or holding a shield. At level 4 and up, the swordsman is entitled a second block attack each round at a -5 penalty. At level 7 and up, the swordsman is entitled a third block attack each round at a -10 penalty. These extra block attacks must be used against different attacks. The swordsman can only try to negate each attack once.

Retaliate (Ex): If a swordsman is able to negate a melee attack using his block attack ability, he is entitled to make an attack of oppurtunity against the creature attacking him, if he is still allowed to make an attack of oppurtunity against that opponent this round. If the swordsman has multiple attacks of oppurtunities (by feats such as combat reflexes), he can still make only 1 attack of oppurtunity against a single opponent, but he is allowed to retaliate against multiple opponents if he manages to negate the attacks of multiple opponents.

And the last two have some issues (outlined above in WAY to much detail ).

Command whatever that is, I do agree that it would be good for this class.

 

[Mithreander]

I was just going over what I had written and come to the conclusion that the swordsman would NOT want a high dexterity versus a high strength without weapon finesse. WIth a high dexterity, his AC is raised, so he'll be less likely to block, thus his main two class skills are wasted, especially since when he does hit, the amount of damage is less sinificant. With strength, he'd get better chances of hitting, blocking and damage! Great all around! The way things are now, we've created a class who WANTS a limited AC, thus would be against dexterity UNLESS it also helped to hit.

 

[TheUber]

Can I put this on my site?
www.uberddragons.cjb.net

 

[Mithreander]

SUre, though I would prefer to have it completely done. Do you have any opinions on the PrC to date?

 

[Mithreander]

Newest idea for Block attack and retaliation:

Block Attack (Ex):
On the swordsman's initiative, he can choose a single opponent. When that opponent attacks the swordsman, the swordsman can choose to block that opponents attack (regardless if it would hit or miss). If the swordsman's to-hit roll exceeds that of the opponent's to-hit roll, the swardsman efectively negates the attack against him and forces the opponent in a compromised position allowing the swordsman to take advantage of an AoO if he has not used all his AoOs for the round. The swordsman is only allowed to make block attacks when wielding a twohanded sword and not wearing armor or holding a shield. At level 4 and up, the swordsman is entitled a second block attack at a -5 penalty. At level 7 and up, the swordsman is entitled a third block attack each round at a -10 penalty. These extra block attacks must be used against different attacks from the chosen opponent. The swordsman can only try to negate each attack once. If the Swordsman has multiple AoOs (by feats such as combat reflexes), he is allowed to take multiple AoOs if he nanages to negate multiple attacks.

I know that normally you are not allowed multiple AoO against one opponent, but I can see how it would work here. Also, this way it does not necessarely go against AC directly, so a higher dexterity will not make this ability nearly useless. What do you think?

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

Well, I'd disagree with a premiss that high ac makes block useless. Think of it this way- if a given enemy would have 50% of hitting a given AC, and you have a 30% chance of blocking it, that reduces their chance to 35%. If your AC was one point higher, they have a 45% chance of hitting and, since their attack role is now higher, you have only a 25% chance of blocking it. However, their chance to hit you is still 33.75%. So block still reduces their chance to hit you significantly.

Second, I don't think that Epic Swordsmen really create that much of a problem- or at least, no more of one than is already there. By which I mean a 10th level swordsman could be anything from a Fighter 5/Swordsman 10 to a Fighter 10/Swordsman 10- quite the difference! No matter how many ranks there are in the Swordfighter hierarchy, there'll always be 20 levels. Epic swordsmen would remain rank ten- after all, their gaining levels is only expanding a "problem" that already exists.

But really, I don't think you need to worry. Unless you play in an uber-NPC soaked campaign like the Realms, very, very few people are going to be epic. Heck, by the standard "Who's the highest level here?" rules provided in the DMG for cities of various sizes, you'd need metropolis just to find a rank 10 swordsman to challenge and gain your next level.

 

[Mithreander]

Well, I'd disagree with a premiss that high ac makes block useless. Think of it this way- if a given enemy would have 50% of hitting a given AC, and you have a 30% chance of blocking it, that reduces their chance to 35%. If your AC was one point higher, they have a 45% chance of hitting and, since their attack role is now higher, you have only a 25% chance of blocking it. However, their chance to hit you is still 33.75%. So block still reduces their chance to hit you significantly.

I would agree if this was the complete equation, but it is not. The 30% chance to block the attack is inaccurate (and so in turn is your later rendition of 25%), for if he rolls a natural 11, then the swordsman would have a 30% chance to block, but if he rolls anything above a natural 16 on his to-hit roll, then the swordsman would have NO CHANCE to block. Calculated out and the opponent has a 44.75% chance of still hitting, rather then the 35% that you had calculated. That means that that block is only serving a little more then a +1 to AC in preventing a hit, in this case.

Opponent Rolls to hit | Swordman Needs to roll to block
11 | 15 (30% chance to block)
12 | 16 (25%)
13 | 17 (20%)
14 | 18 (15%)
15 | 19 (10%)
16 | 20 (5%)
17-20 | n\a

Below I've outlined what would happen, if against the same opponent, the swordsman had an oppertunity to raise his, what would happen to the chances of his opponents chances to hit him would be.

AC +1 gives 41.25% vs. 45% chance. (Less then a +1 to AC bonus would give)
AC +2 gives 37.5% vs. 40%
AC +3 gives 33.5% vs. 35%
AC +4 gives 29.25% vs. 30%
AC +5 gives 24.75% vs. 25%
AC +6 gives 20% chance to hit regardless if the swordsman has block or not.

 

[Thomas Hobbes]

Point conceded- which is to say, I agree that block isn't as effective at higher ACs. I would suggest a different solution that yours, however- although they could be combined. I would suggest a bonus to the attack roll when blocking- so the entries would look something like Block 1/day +3, Block 2/day +6, etc. (and I still say he should get that 4th block at 10th level, just so he could theoretically block attacks against him by an opponent of the same level. but I digress). This would bring block back into the realm of the useful, without "two-handed finess"- which I find, as I said before, a bit silly.