The thing I miss most from AD&D is...

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I disagree. Even if you are a non-optimizer playing in a game with an optimizer, that doesn't mean that the optimizer will get more spotlight time, especially since for the most part even if you spend time tweaking your character to perfection, the gains are usually pretty modest (save for rule abuse characters like Pun-Pun). Further, the non-optimizer can easily make up for his mechanical deficiency with (for example) better non-mechanical elements like character background (if that's what the player likes to do). In the end, the DM you play for is far more critical for determining who gets the spotlight than how the other PCs design their characters.

But there are no guarentees either way. Just because someone spends 2 days to optimize his character doesn't mean he comes up with a similar genius background as you.

But one thing is sure - if stuff requires mechanical resolution, the optimizer will come off better. And in many cases, that's where effective spot light is decided, particularly in combat (or in other way "mechanics") heavy games.

 

[Storm Raven]

But there are no guarentees either way. Just because someone spends 2 days to optimize his character doesn't mean he comes up with a similar genius background as you.

Sure. But as I said before, who the DM is, and what they emphasize is in my experience much more important for determining who gets spotlight time.

But one thing is sure - if stuff requires mechanical resolution, the optimizer will come off better. And in many cases, that's where effective spot light is decided, particularly in combat (or in other way "mechanics") heavy games.

Only if the DM emphasizes mechanical resolution, and even then, as I pointed out, the gains from optimization are usually fairly modest. While the optimizer is spending his time trying to eke out another +1 to the die roll, the non-optimizer can spend an extra hour sitting around talking to the DM. Who do you think is going to get more attention when the game gets going?

 

[ExploderWizard]

But that's the point. With team based initiative, the PCs don't act as a team. All the delays, holds, and waits are the PCs actually acting as a team by making decisions. But with team initiative, the PCs don't make the decision to work together, they work together because the rules make them work together. In other words, the rules do the functioning as a team part, the PCs just go along for the ride. With individual initiative, the PCs can act as a team, if they actually make teamwork related choices.

Fair enough. The way I see it is that all the hoop jumping with the waiting, holding, etc, is just a time consuming workaround of complex clunky mechanics so that the PC's can effectively act together and implement thier tactics.

 

[Storm Raven]

Fair enough. The way I see it is that all the hoop jumping with the waiting, holding, etc, is just a time consuming workaround of complex clunky mechanics so that the PC's can effectively act together and implement thier tactics.

No one ever said choosing to work together as a team was easy.

Well, unless the game rules do it for you.