The times, are they a-changin?

[Eva of Sirrion]

There was a time not to long ago when things like munchkin, rules-lawyer, and min-maxer were very derogatory. The aim was to promote better role-playing as opposed to roll-playing. In my recent experiences, it seems the dynamic has changed. Now it doesn't seem like people who post about how to trick out characters are put down like they would be in old days. The main items of discussion are how best to prepare to fight X bad guy, and arguably it is the hardcore role-players who are the ones looked-down upon for the fact that their poor character build will make them useless in the party and that their lack of planning will result in a grisly TPK for the party.

I know this is a dangerous area to get into. Despite my post count I've been around RPG message boards (longer than some of you may imagine) and I know how easily a flamewar on this very topic can start. What I said here was a statement of what I've seen, nothing more, nothing less. I'm just sharing the data I've compiled, and I want to see if the data you've compiled corroborates with mine. I don't want to get into a role-vs-rollplayer flamewar. If you understand that, post away. If not, just stay away from the reply button and find another thread.

 

[francisca]

Are you talking about ENWorld, or gamerdom in general?

 

[Poster Bard]

The more defined a game system becomes mechanically, the less likely a semantic solution to an obstacle will be broadly acceptable.

 

[Eva of Sirrion]

Francisca: Either one or both

 

[Quasqueton]

Perhaps you could provide some links to examples of what you're talking about?

Otherwise, it could look like you are trolling (despite your claim otherwise).

Without evidence, you have no case.

Quasqueton

 

[EricNoah]

I see many alignment discussions, which are essentially roleplaying discussions at their heart. I see many requests for plot help, which deals with story. I see lots of requests for help at being a better DM. And yes, I see threads about the nuts and bolts of the game mechanics as well. It all has a place here.

And if the "old days" were about putting people down for being a munchkin or whatever, I say good riddance. Life's too short to spend it going around knocking someone else's style of play or reason for playing.

 

[Psion]

I'd say "yes". Muchkinism is still typiclally considered a bane, but for many, the boundary of what is called munchkin has gotten pushed back a bit. There has been a bit more honest admission by some that tactical game play is a major mode of game play.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With the rise of more complex systems like GURPS, HERO, and D20, tricking out a PC actually matters more, if only for playability issues.

After all, if you envision your warrior as being a master of 2 weapon fighting with an oversized exotic weapons in D20, you need to figure out the PC's feat path from day 1.

As I see it, "true munchkinism" is occurring at about the same rate as before. I still see posts about doing 48 die worth of damage, or characters that have been multiply-templated to the point of being chimera.

But most of the "tweek my PC" stuff is just people trying to wrap their heads around the game mechanics, or figuring out ways to design unusual PCs within the D20 rules.

 

[Wormwood]

There was a time not to long ago when things like munchkin, rules-lawyer, and min-maxer were very derogatory. The aim was to promote better role-playing as opposed to roll-playing.

And thank God that crap is over with.

/doesn't miss being told that I'm having 'badwrongfun'.
// and "roll-playing"? Is it 1992 again?

 

[Herremann the Wise]

As I believe you are talking about perceptions rather than trolling, I believe this thread topic passes muster - I ain't smellin' nothin' yet.

Out of the three terms you mention, I think "min-maxer" is the only one that still carries a little negative weight. Munchkinism might still ruffle some feathers but personally, rules lawyer has lost a lot of it negative connotation.

For example, in a game recently - which is played strictly by the r.a.w - both another player and I jumped on a DM "mistake" at the same time. The DM looked at us as I said, "go team rules lawyer". He laughed and paid the correction. It might not seem very funny but it was quite a moment.

In essence, I can cop being called a "rules lawyer" no problem but if you call me a "min-maxer" just because my level 4 Aristocrat/Paladin has a diplomacy of +23, I'll start getting cranky! I could have chosen the negotiator feat too but I didn't so there! [/removes tongue from cheek]

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise