The TPK curse

[jdavis]

For some reason players always think they can win any fight put before them. I don't think you did anything wrong, you fudged some roles to cover for their bad dice but there is no way to cover for PC's making stupid mistakes. They had plenty of time to get away and come back with help or a good plan but they decided to wade into something that was above their ability and bash heads with it on it's terms. I'd make a point to let them know that they died do to a wrong choice before the battle started and that sometimes you have to run away, you can always come back later when the characters are better prepared.

In a situation like this I'd bring the characters back and have them owe a big favor to a powerful Cleric who would take advantage of this to get them to do some "jobs" for him. He could become a starting point for other adventures as a recurring character.

Another thing to remember when fudging roles or changing things up as DM, you should never ever ever let the players know you fudged any roles or changed anything up.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

If you warned them ahead of time that there would be encounters where fleeing was a better option, you have no problem. You're only responsible for providing encounters of an appropriate level if they expect you too... I'd go so far as to say you'd be right in dropping an encounter on them where running is the only option for survival, and still a difficult one... Of course, most encounters should be appropriate to their level (or easier), but mixing it up some helps create a certain degree of versimilitude.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that they lost characters that they'd gotten into role-playing-wise... You could always do the whole villain-saves-them-laughs-and-sets-them-free route (I've done that to avoid a TPK involving, yes, ghasts -- four versus a fifth-sixth-level party), but I'm not sure if they could really continue with their characters after that... There'd be that whole sense of "this character should be dead, but there was that cheesy plot device", which makes it harder to take the character seriously -- bad for role-playing. Make it clear you liked the role-playing earlier, and maybe even throw them a bone (start them off at third level)... A TPK is its own penalty, no use rubbing it on.

(Also, this fails as a true TPK: The Ranger survived!?! Some RBDM you are! )

 

[LostSoul]

Perhaps the opposition was a bit too powerful but the players, if they are experienced, should be able to recognize when they are outmatched.

Isn't that a great example of out of character thinking? Unless the PCs had some knowledge skills, or something like that, how would they know how difficult the encounter was?

edit: What's more, once one PC gets paralyzed, the rest of the group is going to feel obligated to hang around to try and save him.

 

[jdavis]

Isn't that a great example of out of character thinking? Unless the PCs had some knowledge skills, or something like that, how would they know how difficult the encounter was?

edit: What's more, once one PC gets paralyzed, the rest of the group is going to feel obligated to hang around to try and save him.

If the PC's had no clue what they were up against wouldn't it of been smarter to find out what they were before they rushed headlong into them? The assumption that the DM wouldn't of put in a encounter unless he knew we could beat it is out of character thinking as much as anything else. Just because you can fight doesn't always make it the best choice. The characters had just went through several test to show how smart and resourceful they were, then they turned around and fought a fight with creatures they A: knew what could do and should of known out matched them in a straight up fight; or B: had no clue what was and what powers they had. They had time to get away and go get more information and become better prepared, but thay made a common mistake and attacked a more powerful enemy head on, even if they had rolled good they were outmatched and in trouble from the get go. It's a terribly common mistake that is made in D&D. Sometimes you have to fight, but in this case they had time to observe their opponents and size them up well before a fight took place.

 

[Hadit]

Pretty much everything I have read here is level-headed advice.
My own: That's a rough-as-nails encounter for that particular crew. Oh well... sounds like you gave ample provision to the players so that they would know that occasionally they may have to run from an encounter. TPK, lesson learned. Players lick ego wounds and learn a bit about your DMing style.
Help them be happy by allowing them to make 2nd level dudes at least... it sounds like they've earned it from the top-notch roll-playing action they presented in the earlier stages of the game. Call it "karma".
They don't necessarily need to create a cleric PC... that's what NPC's can be used for. But they REALLY should look into getting some "god/dess" into the party because they are planning on raiding a TOMB, am I right? (Actually, cleric's are critical components of ANY adventure).
About fudging dice rolls: I agree with Jemal at the beginning of this thread. Try to never do it. Ever. Except... extremely occasionally... argh! I know you feel like things should be a certain way, but... let the dice tell the story of how the game is played. Players will learn (DMs too!).
Always there will be bad dice nights for the players... such is a factor of the game they they must learn to incorporate into their thinking. They learn to be a trifle cautious about borderline encounters.
Final note: Ghouls and ghasts are a LOT tougher than their CR indicates! As are any creatures that can deliver 3 attacks in a full round that all require Fort saves against paralysis... that lasts 3 + minutes minimum! All my players quake at the thought!

 

[the Jester]

Ghouls and ghasts are tough, but one thing I strive for is to make each group go, "Man, I wish we had...." at some point every game. I try to have a role for each class, each skill, each feat... even the ones not in the party.

I also believe in fudging as little as possible- I have only fudged the dice about a dozen times since 3e came out, and I've been dming once or more a week every week since then except when I went on my trip around the country.

 

[clark411]

Devil's Advocate

Well, I'll just throw in a few comments:

1- From a player point of view, I'd say that there was no obvious "suicidal" tendency in this scenario. Upon seeing them at 300 paces, were they identified as ghasts?, and if so, does this mean anything to the characters? If it doesn't- saying it was ludicrous or a lesson is quite silly. If the characters do know something about ghasts, had they themselves encountered them before? Ghasts and ghouls hardly appear any more deadly than other low level undead which, by and large are pretty cake to slice through (unclassed/unadvanced skeletons and zombies). When you take away a character's understanding of mechanics, it usually boils down to numbers and size. Run from big monsters, run if heavily outnumbered- badaboom.

2- Also of note, the players had an advantage they opted to exploit at the beginning of combat- 300' away, targeting enemies that were both oblivious to their presense and were forced to spend at least two rounds and a half rounds bee-lining it towards the party before engaging (assuming open ground with no movement penalties or obstacles). I'm frankly quite impressed any time my DM has our opponents instantly zero in on our location and rapidly haul rear over to us - as he's truly displaying his sense of fantasy gaming by optimizing our enemy's situation despite so many disadvantageous factors. /sarcasm off

3- Furthermore, undead are not the best "Learn how to run" enemies. With the ghouls' lack of a constitution score (and with a base speed of 30), an average party is more likely to die tired half a mile down the path than escape a ghoul (especially with their surprisingly high listen and spot checks). Exceptions of course may be made for your party barbarian and possibly monk (at level 2 maybe not). Halflings, dwarves, or anyone even remotely armored? Forget about it. The mechanics very often do not support a "Well, we can always run." mentality. The fact that the ghouls zeroed in and engaged them with such alacrity simply furthered the idea that they'd have no choice but to stay and fight.

On the whole, I think that despite the above, what I read sounded like a fair adjucation of a rather nasty run of events. The luck fairies tucked tail and ran for your party, and seemed like they paid for their misfortune and more importantly for their WANNA-KILL-SUM-BAAADY! mentality that they had at the end of a night of roleplay.

 

[Decado]

Lost Soul,

Yes what I said could be taken as out of character knowledge but that is not what I intended. I think that it is possible to determine if you are out matched in an encounter without using out of character knowledge, especially after the first few rounds of combat do not go in the parties favor. I have found that players feel they can defeat every adversary they face and have no concept of advancing to the rear

Decado