Level Up (A5E) The Troll Slayers Power level

[TerranHirons]

The Troll Slayer from the dungeon delvers guide is rather strong compared to other berserker subclasses.
Indeed I think it is clearly the best berserker subclass in the game, they get fire damage on all their attacks, unarmed damage increase, reduce the cost of all tooth and claw maneuvers by 1, they have thorns damage against people who bite them, cannot have their max hp reduced, are immune to effects that would make them unable to regain hp, can spend their own hit dice to regain 1d12+ con hp as a bonus action while raging, have an anti hp regen aura, regain hit dice when killing a creature of cr equal to half their lvl, and have reach while raging.
They get twice as many abilities as other berserkers, which would maybe be excusable if they didn't also have some of the strongest abilities available to any berserker subclass in the game.

Im interested to hear peoples opinions about this

 

[JerichoPenumbra]

While it does get a large number of potent abilities, I think it's offset by most them being niche in use. As well as if you use the claws, then you won't be able to use your Furious Critical abilities since unarmed strikes are not Heavy, Two-Handed, or Versatile weapons.

 

[Sepulchre]

I think Tempest is the best A5e zerker subclass. Troll Slayer would be competitive if it the claws could be used for Furious Critical, but without that house rule, it’s decent but not great.

 

[BogrimBungaar]

While it does get a large number of potent abilities, I think it's offset by most them being niche in use. As well as if you use the claws, then you won't be able to use your Furious Critical abilities since unarmed strikes are not Heavy, Two-Handed, or Versatile weapons.

I think Tempest is the best A5e zerker subclass. Troll Slayer would be competitive if it the claws could be used for Furious Critical, but without that house rule, it’s decent but not great.

While you are correct that the Troll Slayer cannot use its Furious Critical abilities on a critical hit with its claws, I don’t think that diminishes the power of the Archetype at all. The main advantage of the claws is that you reduce the exertion cost of Tooth and Claw Maneuvers while they are manifested - and at 11th level, both the claws and the additional fire damage are manifested while raging. Just looking at RAW the Troll Slayer is free to attack with a Heavy weapon to benefit from Furious Critical and still benefit from the reduction in TAC exertion cost gained from manifesting his claws.

I agree that many of its abilities are niche, but there are many Archetypes with niche abilities. The Troll Slayer is designed in such a way that each of its “features” are actually multiple individually-powerful abilities. Self-Knitting Flesh, for example, both gives you immunity to effects that would lower your hit point maximum and allows you to expend hit die as a bonus action while raging. Acidic Blood, as another example, gives you both immunity to acid damage and a 3d6 “thorns damage” effect against bite attacks. Withering Wrath allows the Troll Slayer to both dampen the regeneration of his foes and restore hit dice upon defeating enemies of a certain CR. This is the only ability I am aware of in A5E that gives the player the ability to regain hit dice outside of a long rest.

I’m playing a 17th Level Troll Slayer in my current campaign, and I’m really enjoying it. As much as I love this Archetype I agree with OP, and I don’t think it is balanced against the existing Berserker options.

 

[Sepulchre]

You’re right—the claws should be treated as a ribbon. I’m still inclined to think the half-cover aura of the tempest is better, but you’ve made a good case.

Reducing the cost of those 2 and 3 point exertion Tooth and Claw maneuvers is pretty nice.

 

[JerichoPenumbra]

While you are correct that the Troll Slayer cannot use its Furious Critical abilities on a critical hit with its claws, I don’t think that diminishes the power of the Archetype at all. The main advantage of the claws is that you reduce the exertion cost of Tooth and Claw Maneuvers while they are manifested - and at 11th level, both the claws and the additional fire damage are manifested while raging. Just looking at RAW the Troll Slayer is free to attack with a Heavy weapon to benefit from Furious Critical and still benefit from the reduction in TAC exertion cost gained from manifesting his claws.

I agree that many of its abilities are niche, but there are many Archetypes with niche abilities. The Troll Slayer is designed in such a way that each of its “features” are actually multiple individually-powerful abilities. Self-Knitting Flesh, for example, both gives you immunity to effects that would lower your hit point maximum and allows you to expend hit die as a bonus action while raging. Acidic Blood, as another example, gives you both immunity to acid damage and a 3d6 “thorns damage” effect against bite attacks. Withering Wrath allows the Troll Slayer to both dampen the regeneration of his foes and restore hit dice upon defeating enemies of a certain CR. This is the only ability I am aware of in A5E that gives the player the ability to regain hit dice outside of a long rest.

I’m playing a 17th Level Troll Slayer in my current campaign, and I’m really enjoying it. As much as I love this Archetype I agree with OP, and I don’t think it is balanced against the existing Berserker options.

I'm not denying potency of the abilities, but I'm trying to keep in mind the context in which those abilities will actually see use. How many effects actually reduce max HP? Only one I can think of off-hand is Mummy Rot. For Acidic Blood, I see more use from people wading through pools of acid intended to be traps, given this Archetype is from the Dungeon Delver's Guide I think that may be intended. Acid damage is less common; A5e.tools only lists 3 spells of the acid school, and aside from monsters like oozes or acid breathing dragons I can't think of many that do acid damage. 3d6 damage on creatures that bite you is beefy, not saying it isn't, but depends on what enemies you're fighting. As for anti-regeneration aura, how many creatures actually have regeneration? Off-hand I think trolls and vampires and not much else. The regaining HD on slaying a strong enemy sounds good, but also sounds like the berserker will be hungry for getting the last hits which may prolong the fights.

It's a sub-class that's specialized with dealing with certain enemies, with effects broadened a bit so they don't feel so specialized they're useless for anything else. In other editions when using a ranger for example, if you were dealing with enemies you selected to specialize in it felt great. If the campaign shifted and you weren't dealing with your specialized foes you'd feel like half your abilities did nothing. The other options for Berserker are just fine and I consider them to be on par or better since they're actually work more easily with Furious Focus. While as you say technically RAW the claws can just be manifested and you can use a weapon outside of that for the Exertion cost reduction, I'm not fully certain that's RAI. (Granted, I think it's a bit stupid that Furious Focus is basically intended to be used with only two-handed weapons and unarmed strikes/natural attacks can't be used with it. With a name like Berserker, fighting tooth and nail or till bare knuckles are bloody while raging sounds thematically appropriate for the class.)

I don't think being balanced against existing options is the most sustainable way to evaluate something since the options will continue to grow and the average power of archetypes will grow as people get more accustomed to the system and start to push the boundaries; power creep and all that. DDG has a lot of interesting ideas and more than a bit of options are unbalanced when compared to options prior to that. Dungeon Robber background for example besides giving the usual two skills and a tool proficiency also gives freaking SIX languages.

 

[BogrimBungaar]

I'm not denying potency of the abilities, but I'm trying to keep in mind the context in which those abilities will actually see use. How many effects actually reduce max HP? Only one I can think of off-hand is Mummy Rot. For Acidic Blood, I see more use from people wading through pools of acid intended to be traps, given this Archetype is from the Dungeon Delver's Guide I think that may be intended. Acid damage is less common; A5e.tools only lists 3 spells of the acid school, and aside from monsters like oozes or acid breathing dragons I can't think of many that do acid damage. 3d6 damage on creatures that bite you is beefy, not saying it isn't, but depends on what enemies you're fighting. As for anti-regeneration aura, how many creatures actually have regeneration? Off-hand I think trolls and vampires and not much else. The regaining HD on slaying a strong enemy sounds good, but also sounds like the berserker will be hungry for getting the last hits which may prolong the fights.

It's a sub-class that's specialized with dealing with certain enemies, with effects broadened a bit so they don't feel so specialized they're useless for anything else. In other editions when using a ranger for example, if you were dealing with enemies you selected to specialize in it felt great. If the campaign shifted and you weren't dealing with your specialized foes you'd feel like half your abilities did nothing. The other options for Berserker are just fine and I consider them to be on par or better since they're actually work more easily with Furious Focus. While as you say technically RAW the claws can just be manifested and you can use a weapon outside of that for the Exertion cost reduction, I'm not fully certain that's RAI. (Granted, I think it's a bit stupid that Furious Focus is basically intended to be used with only two-handed weapons and unarmed strikes/natural attacks can't be used with it. With a name like Berserker, fighting tooth and nail or till bare knuckles are bloody while raging sounds thematically appropriate for the class.)

I don't think being balanced against existing options is the most sustainable way to evaluate something since the options will continue to grow and the average power of archetypes will grow as people get more accustomed to the system and start to push the boundaries; power creep and all that. DDG has a lot of interesting ideas and more than a bit of options are unbalanced when compared to options prior to that. Dungeon Robber background for example besides giving the usual two skills and a tool proficiency also gives freaking SIX languages.

I definitely see your point. Having a bunch of specific abilities is fun and quite strong but it’s by no means game-breaking. And yes, a bit of power creep is inevitable and not necessarily the worst thing. I just hope that the options in the Adventurer’s Guide don’t become obsolete as many of the PHB options did in O5E.

I’m still convinced that Troll Slayer is quite strong and definitely my favourite Berseker Archetype so far. Withering Wrath in particular feels very powerful when the party is having its resources depleted during a long dungeon crawl and my Troll Slayer is no worse for wear and with no shortage of high-CR monsters to replenish his HD.

But at the end of the day I’m just glad to be rid of the 3rd Level Bear Totem Barbarian that resists all damage.

 

[Timespike]

As the person to blame for the Troll Slayer archetype, I'm just glad to hear someone is actually playing it! I thought perhaps its weird love/hate troll lore would be too weird to actually get any use.

 

[Sepulchre]

As the person to blame for the Troll Slayer archetype, I'm just glad to hear someone is actually playing it! I thought perhaps its weird love/hate troll lore would be too weird to actually get any use.

I think it’s design-wise a great subclass. Pretty balanced with interesting, unique, and flavorful mechanics.