The Trouble With Rules Discussions

[TiQuinn]

After the slippers of spider climbing initial argument we had another later in the campaign. I wanted to borrow another PCs ring of water walking to use with the slippers to walk up a waterfall and sneak into the bad guy lair. I thought I would be able to walk up the waterfall since the ring allowed one to walk across running water. His argument was that the water was flowing faster than my speed so I would not make any progress and later in the discussion, it was brought up that standing in a river would still push you downstream even though you were not touching it. I was thinking that not actually touching part meant that water would just flow under you.

I think it ended up with the point of the slippers needing to touch the wall and ceiling to stick to them and the ring not actually touching part meant they would not work together.

Again, it just strikes me as a DM who was fearful that the items they were giving out were suddenly too powerful and had to be contained, which just creates unnecessary uncertainty for the player.

 

[TwoSix]

After the slippers of spider climbing initial argument we had another later in the campaign. I wanted to borrow another PCs ring of water walking to use with the slippers to walk up a waterfall and sneak into the bad guy lair. I thought I would be able to walk up the waterfall since the ring allowed one to walk across running water. His argument was that the water was flowing faster than my speed so I would not make any progress and later in the discussion, it was brought up that standing in a river would still push you downstream even though you were not touching it. I was thinking that not actually touching part meant that water would just flow under you.

I think it ended up with the point of the slippers needing to touch the wall and ceiling to stick to them and the ring not actually touching part meant they would not work together.

I think the purpose of items like ring of water walking and slippers of spider climbing is that they're meant to be toys that let you play around with physics. For those kind of items, the DM definitely has to don their "simulationist hat" and think more closely about how the magic is expected to work.

 

[pemerton]

I think the purpose of items like ring of water walking and slippers of spider climbing is that they're meant to be toys that let you play around with physics. For those kind of items, the DM definitely has to don their "simulationist hat" and think more closely about how the magic is expected to work.

Or, alternatively, they can just let you walk on walls and water!

 

[James Gasik]

It reminds me of a story I heard online once about someone using an immovable rod and the DM saying that, once activated, it zips away from you at a speed of thousands of miles per hour (no doubt causing some major disaster along the way) as while it remained in place, the planet continued to rotate...

Or that question someone wrote into the old Sage Advice about a player asking if his DM was correct in ruling that, if wearing a ring of free action (that thing again!), someone jumping into the water would immediately fall to the bottom and take falling damage because "water does not restrict your movement".

 

[TwoSix]

Or, alternatively, they can just let you walk on walls and water!

The problem is, relatively simple statements like that can become fraught and damage the fiction, depending on how literal the players might be.

If I throw a bucket of water on a wall, can I walk up the wall with my "water-walking shoes"?

People are bags of mostly water, can I hover above them? Am I carried along if they start walking?

There's water vapor in the air, can I walk on the water in the air to essentially airwalk?

And I thought of those in about 10 seconds! If you give anyone an open-ended tool, there's almost guaranteed to try and find the weird corner cases.

 

[James Gasik]

The problem is, relatively simple statements like that can become fraught and damage the fiction, depending on how literal the players might be.

If I throw a bucket of water on a wall, can I walk up the wall with my "water-walking shoes"?

People are bags of mostly water, can I hover above them? Am I carried along if they start walking?

There's water vapor in the air, can I walk on the water in the air to essentially airwalk?

And I thought of those in about 10 seconds! If you give anyone an open-ended tool, there's almost guaranteed to try and find the weird corner cases.

"Can I run up the body of a water elemental and stand on it's head?" -some player, somewhere.

 

[pemerton]

The problem is, relatively simple statements like that can become fraught and damage the fiction, depending on how literal the players might be.

If I throw a bucket of water on a wall, can I walk up the wall with my "water-walking shoes"?

People are bags of mostly water, can I hover above them? Am I carried along if they start walking?

There's water vapor in the air, can I walk on the water in the air to essentially airwalk?

And I thought of those in about 10 seconds! If you give anyone an open-ended tool, there's almost guaranteed to try and find the weird corner cases.

I don't think reflecting on the nature of magic in the world will help answer any of those, though.

As opposed to thinking of tropes and stories from fiction and legend.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't think reflecting on the nature of magic in the world will help answer any of those, though.

As opposed to thinking of tropes and stories from fiction and legend.

Sure. My point here would be that the rules for the magic items in question needs to be codified as working in a manner of myths and tropes, not as a "Portal Gun" where the player is intended to figure out the boundaries.

 

[pemerton]

Sure. My point here would be that the rules for the magic items in question needs to be codified as working in a manner of myths and tropes, not as a "Portal Gun" where the player is intended to figure out the boundaries.

Sorry, what's a "Portal Gun"? I think I'm missing a myth or trope!

 

[TiQuinn]

"Can I run up the body of a water elemental and stand on it's head?" -some player, somewhere.

This would actually be cool AF.