The Truth About 4th Edition.

[Nikosandros]

Removed by poster.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I'm older now too, but I don't feel like I've lost my attention span, or somehow become less intelligent.

Sorry, but on several measures, we are all most definitely less intelligent when we get older.

I have reams of data showing that your cognitive performance on most tasks begins to decline during your 20s, your memory begins to decline noticeably shortly thereafter, and for the vast majority, attention span for new information drops precipitously in your 30s. However, your attention for retreads of familiar information increases. Which is sort of telling and explains a great deal that is irritating about our culture.

We get better at other things, like impulse control, for example, or higher tolerance for repetition. So it's not all bad news. But in general, 18 year old you will run circles around 38 year old you on a math test, a memory test, or a basketball court.

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

Good interview

I think it was a good interview. I'm no fan of Andy Collins' idea of what D&D should be, but he was very upfront about where 4E drew its inspiration from and why it is the way it is.

As for attention span, well I must admit mine isn't what it once was. I don't think it's age related -- I think the constant information overload we get these days has just changed the way people process information.

Ken

 

[Mark Chance]

But in general, 18 year old you will run circles around 38 year old you on a math test, a memory test, or a basketball court.

For 3 out of 4, not most 18 year-olds I've met. Of course, I've not met most 18 year-olds, and I'm not a general example, but a specific one.

But it is a curious observation to me that one who once played, say, OD&D would have a hard time re-learning it compared to learning a newer, more complicated system like 3E or 4E. I sense the use of hyperbole, which is often interpreted literally when attempting to downplay the point being made.

I played not only 1E but also OD&D. I'm also rather bright (moreso than the average 18 year-old). I've not played OD&D since high school, which for me was more than two decades ago. Still, I'm confident that I could re-learn OD&D more easily and more quickly than I could learn 4E.

The real issue isn't intelligence levels then versus now. The real issue isn't all of those things competing for my time that John Snow listed above (especially since I regularly choose to ignore many of them). It seems to me the real issue is this:

Is learning (or re-learning) X something I feel like doing?

IOW, it's not my intelligence that has changed. (If anything, I'm smarter now than I was when I was 18, no matter how reams of data say otherwise.) It's my tastes that have changes as well as my friends, who have their own sets of tastes.

For those reasons, I'll probably never play 4E. It just doesn't sound like my kind of game (even though it does sound like it has some neat features). It isn't the kind of game most of my gamer friends would enjoy either. Therefore, I have no real incentive to give it a try. Likewise, I'm not going to switch back to OD&D either.

WotC crafted a particular kind of D&D that a lot of folks enjoy. Good for WotC, and good for those people. I wish them all the best with their 4E experience.

 

[rounser]

What a weird thing to say. I found the 4E PHB far more impenetrable than any prior edition. The great wall of powers saw to that, and the confused presentation too (e.g. running into things like [w] before they're defined).

There's also less cliches to latch onto in the implied setting, as you have to learn about the dragonborn, tiefling, eladrin before being able to visualise a world they might inhabit (before finding that it portrayed a world I didn't feel motivated to suspend disbelief for).

No, I think if learning the game were the goal and a criticism of past editions, it's pot meet kettle.

 

[ggroy]

However, your attention for retreads of familiar information increases. Which is sort of telling and explains a great deal that is irritating about our culture.

Get off my lawn type of mentality?

But in general, 18 year old you will run circles around 38 year old you on a math test, a memory test, or a basketball court.

One counterexample: a 38 year old mathematician vs. an 18 year old on the same calculus/algebra test.

 

[Jack99]

If WOTC admits that they took WOW as an inspiration, then why do we still have 4e fanboys getting agitated when someone compares 4e to WOW? Is being associated to WOW such a bad thing? To me WOTC is correct in taking influence due to the current generation.

I doubt you can find (m)any 4e fanboys claiming that they (Wotc) haven't taken any inspiration from WoW. What we do say is that 4e doesn't feel nor play like a videogame (in this case WoW), which is not quite the same. A great example is WoW taunt, which is often linked to the defender's ability to mark. When in reality, it works the complete opposite way. Taunt (in WoW and other MMO's) forces the monster to target and attack the tank, whereas mark punishes the monster for not doing it. More or less same result (stickyness and a monster which attacks the tank/defender) but vastly different feel and execution, as in 4e, the monster (or rather the DM) still has a choice.

 

[billd91]

I like playing 4E but this interview reminded me how much it was designed to contravene what I look for in a game. In fact, if you exchanged the name "Andy Collins" for "Chris Pramas", I bet this interview would be castigated as straight flamebait/hatemail towards 4E.

That's kind of what I was thinking too. So you're not alone in that respect.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Is learning (or re-learning) X something I feel like doing?

IOW, it's not my intelligence that has changed. (If anything, I'm smarter now than I was when I was 18, no matter how reams of data say otherwise.) It's my tastes that have changes as well as my friends, who have their own sets of tastes.

I also feel like I'm "smarter" now than I was as a pup. I certainly have a lot more information in my brain. This allows me to detect patterns that young me did not. However, it does take me longer to detect those patterns than it would have if I'd had the same information at 18. If you test my memory retention or my reaction time.... I'm most definitely not as good at 33 as I was at 18. There are physical changes within our brains and bodies that make this non-negotiable.

Your personal evaluation is suspect. Remember, something like 90% of parents think their kids are above average at any given thing we ask about. But I will bet dollars to donuts that if I had cognitive tests from 18 year old you and 35 year old you, 18 year old you is going to have superior numbers on the overwhelming majority of the tests. Your brain is aging. It's a fact you can't get around. For every thing it gets better at doing, it gets worse at several.

Incidentally, re-learning is different from learning. Learning legitimately new information after 30 is harder than you think. Your retention sucks compared to a kid's. Re-learning something you once knew? Different ballgame. You are leveraging existing patterns. Apples and hamburgers.

People who look at 1e books who used to play 1e/2e as a kid are not remotely the same kind of person as someone who is new to them, and they are demonstrably not the same kind of person as the kid who grew up playing Final Fantasy Tactics or the adult who has played a mix of 2e, 3e, and various video games over the course of 20 years.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Get off my lawn type of mentality?

"Oldies" radio stations. Rebooting of popular franchises. Re-treads of fads that were asinine the first time. Dozens of others.

One counterexample: a 38 year old mathematician vs. an 18 year old on the same calculus/algebra test.

Point taken. I was speaking in broad generalities.

But even in your example, the 18 year old will do each individual calculation faster. The math professor pulls ahead because he can leverage patterns better and knows how to chunk mathematical information better.