Another scenario is Paizo being bought up by Hasbro/WotC, where the 2E Pathfinder rpg is released as a 5E or 6E D&D. It becomes one big happy family again.
The Truth About 4th Edition.
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Another scenario is Paizo being bought up by Hasbro/WotC, where the 2E Pathfinder rpg is released as a 5E or 6E D&D. It becomes one big happy family again.
JohnSnow
Hero
I take issue with the phrase "less refined."
My palate for RPG's is plenty refined. It is, in fact, honed from 30 years of playing them. And, at this point in my gaming life, I look back at obtuse things like combat tables and THAC0 with total disdain.
It's not that I can't deal with those things. It's that I don't want to. Of course I'm capable of subtracting to determine a to-hit number or looking the result up in a table, but WHY does it have to be that complex? To paraphrase Einstein, any intelligent fool can make something bigger and more complex, genius lies in making it simpler.
At this point in my life, "simpler" is what my "refined palate" wants. In point of fact, I want my game system to be just as complex as it needs to be, and no more.
To that end, I've tried some very stripped down versions of D&D, like Castles & Crusades and Swords & Wizardry. I even pulled by Red Box out of storage to look at. As I found them lacking, I went up the complexity scale. Third Edition went, in my opinion, a little too far. I liked playing it for a while, but there were areas where it got awfully "fiddly."
So far, 4e seems to have that balance of simple and complex about right - to me. Now that it has more options, my only remaining quibble is something of a feeling that classes have been pigeonholed (and limited) more than they were in the past - especially in terms of combat styles. The thing is that I understand why it was done, but it can still be somewhat frustrating at times. But that's a relatively minor quibble with what I think is otherwise an excellent system. I guess there's a couple minor issues I have with how Rituals and (to a lesser extent) magic items work, but nothing major.
Obviously, not everyone sees it my way. Or maybe they do, but those same issues bother them more than they do me. And that's perfectly fine. Everyone needs to find the game that works for them.
My palate for RPG's is plenty refined. It is, in fact, honed from 30 years of playing them. And, at this point in my gaming life, I look back at obtuse things like combat tables and THAC0 with total disdain.
It's not that I can't deal with those things. It's that I don't want to. Of course I'm capable of subtracting to determine a to-hit number or looking the result up in a table, but WHY does it have to be that complex? To paraphrase Einstein, any intelligent fool can make something bigger and more complex, genius lies in making it simpler.
At this point in my life, "simpler" is what my "refined palate" wants. In point of fact, I want my game system to be just as complex as it needs to be, and no more.
To that end, I've tried some very stripped down versions of D&D, like Castles & Crusades and Swords & Wizardry. I even pulled by Red Box out of storage to look at. As I found them lacking, I went up the complexity scale. Third Edition went, in my opinion, a little too far. I liked playing it for a while, but there were areas where it got awfully "fiddly."
So far, 4e seems to have that balance of simple and complex about right - to me. Now that it has more options, my only remaining quibble is something of a feeling that classes have been pigeonholed (and limited) more than they were in the past - especially in terms of combat styles. The thing is that I understand why it was done, but it can still be somewhat frustrating at times. But that's a relatively minor quibble with what I think is otherwise an excellent system. I guess there's a couple minor issues I have with how Rituals and (to a lesser extent) magic items work, but nothing major.
Obviously, not everyone sees it my way. Or maybe they do, but those same issues bother them more than they do me. And that's perfectly fine. Everyone needs to find the game that works for them.
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JohnSnow
Hero
Another scenario is Paizo being bought up by Hasbro/WotC, where the 2E Pathfinder rpg is released as a 5E or 6E D&D. It becomes one big happy family again.
Except that, invariably, that game will alienate either 4e or Pathfinder players - probably both.
BryonD
Hero
"everyone"? Really? "everyone"?
Are you really and truly claiming this as a universal truth?
Let me just go on the record as claiming that if *I* had paraphrased your statement into: "4E is designed to appeal to people with a lower tolerance for information than prior editions and people who like 4E, might I say 'everyone' who likes 4E, find the level of information in prior editions difficult to absorb", then I would be lambasted as an outrageous edition warrior h4te-monger.
And, officially, I am *not* saying that. But if I had..... whew.
(I bet I STILL get blasted.....)
And "everyone" is wrong. Waaaayyyyy wrong.
BryonD
Hero
I agree 100%.
I think a bigger question would be "What happens to 4e players if 5th edition is another dramatic change?"
Because of the OGL, 3.5 had Paizo there to create Pathfinder. If 5e is dramatically different, then 4e fans...don't.
I think Pathfinder represents something more important then just 'other d7D fans." It's a significant show of one edition moving on in spite of a new one.
BryonD
Hero
Do you think that no one plays games in which all the players remain engaged, even during other player's turns?
Or do you believe these people and games exist out there?
Do you personally become disengaged when it is not the time for your personal action?
JohnSnow
Hero
It depends. I know that in games I've played, some people wander away from the table when certain situations happen. I recall very well a 3e game in which we were fighting in, basically, a closet. The player of the guy at the back, who was a priest with no ranged weapon, had his character wander into the room next door (in the dungeon) and eat jam. He was roleplaying being bored. Fortunately, he was entertaining, and it became a running joke, so we salvaged something from it.
I wouldn't have been at all surprised if a less experienced roleplayer (i.e. a newbie) in that situation had just gone to play the X-Box with a "call me when you're finished with this fight."
It isn't, generally speaking, fun to do nothing for most people. To the extent that D&D has moments where characters are mandated to do nothing, that's, IMO, a flaw, not a feature. Again, I'm speaking for what I think is the vast majority of gamers. Are there people (like my friend) who can turn those moments magical? Sure, but they really shouldn't be put in that position in the first place.
So yeah, I've run into games where it's an issue. Ergo, I'm glad it's been addressed. That doesn't mean it was an issue for everyone. If it never came up in your games, count yourself fortunate.
Some fads never became big again, such as 1980's hairspray heavy metal bands.
Wonder if Alzheimers patients can still remember the music of their youth.
Would this still be the case for 18 year olds who never learned how to do mental arithmetic?
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