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The Ultimates: Homeland Security

Mark_Aurel

First Post
DanMcS said:
Since I'm the reader being quoted here, I'll point out that I said the writing was brilliant, not the plan. The plan entertained me, which was really all I was looking for.

Very sad to hear about the hiatus. They're trying to drive me to Ultimate Spider-Man, aren't they, the finks.

But it's so pretty, and there are a lot of them, I could read USM for quite a while without running out, as opposed to my two lonely paperbacks of the Ultimates...

Hey, might as well ask here... At comic shops, I've seen paperbacks called "Ultimate Team-Up" and "Ultimate Five", something like that. Where do these fit in the stories, and who do they feature? Are these just one-offs of short runs Marvel did in the Ultimate universe, or are they poorly titled issues that fit in with the Ultimate Spider-Man storyline or something?

I'm going to take a gander you were thinking of 'Ultimate Six.' There's been a couple of Ultimate miniseries so far, to showcase specific events. I guess you could call it a sort of a 'not-quite fill-in' fill-in type of book due to the sporadic schedule the Ultimates have come out on. The first was 'Ultimate War,' which was basically the Ultimates vs the Ultimate X-Men, where Magneto escapes incarceration, which leads to the rather typical 'misunderstandings.' It was a bit disappointing, and it didn't even conclude properly in the mini, but led into Ultimate X-Men instead. 'Ultimate Six' was basically the story of the villains Spider-Man has fought; they escape, team up under Norman Osborn's leadership, and the Ultimates have to take them down. It's basically an Ultimate version of the Sinister Six. Ultimate Six is actually quite good, at least if you're jonesin' for the next volume of Ultimates (which is scheduled for October, and this time, they've sworn to God and all that is Holy that they'll keep the monthly schedule, since Hitch has built up a catalog of already finished issues.)

Also in the series of Ultimate crossovers is the upcoming 'Ultimate Nightmare' by Warren Ellis. Ellis has also taken over Ultimate Fantastic Four, and his first issue (#7) was very good, featuring our first look at Ultimate Doom. The armor was a bit ... chilling.
 

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Piratecat

Sesquipedalian
Welverin said:
This reminded me of the fact that when USM first started it was the first good Spidey book Marvel had put out in years.

Ultimate Spiderman started me reading Marvel comicbooks again. The other Ultimate titles are good, but Ultimate Spidey is consistently the best comic I'm currently buying. Great stuff. :)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Villano said:
I haven't read any of the Ultimate series. I have to say that I really don't like this idea. It's sort of like they wanted to do a Crisis On Infinite Earths, but didn't have the guts to go through with it. Now, you have this little Pseudo-Marvel Universe, kind of like the 2099 line (and Ultimates will probably join it and the New Universe in a few years). Either reboot the continuity or don't. )

I don't think there's a parallel at all with DC's continuity reboots. The ultimate books aren't taking over the continuities in the main line of titles. They are alternate stories based off the same characters in somewhat different settings, one's a bit more grounded in our contemporary reality than the other comics (which generally tend to avoid contemporary reality to avoid getting too dated or getting too out of synch with reality).
 

Mog Elffoe

Explorer
Mark_Aurel said:
Mark Millar is, as far as I can tell, a very, very big Superman fan. He loves Superman. He wrote Red Son, which is one of the best Superman stories to appear in recent years. It's close to a perfect rendition of Superman. Mark Millar has also been writing Superman Adventures, the comic version of the Superman Animated Series - and he's done a good job at it.

Uh... What version of Superman: Red Son did you read? Superman becomes a global dictator in that book, who lobotomizes his enemies using super science, and follows in Stalin's footsteps. That's a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman? Wha...!? Okay, your idea of Superman and my idea of Superman are WA-A-A-AY different...

I did like Red Son, as an Elseworlds story. It was a good read, mainly for the Lex Luthor character and how his storyline plays out.

I do believe that Millar has an affection for Superman, though. His Adventures of Superman comics were excellent. If you wanted to say that Millar presented a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman in those comics I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

In Red Son, though? No way. Not even close. That was the point of the Superman character in Red Son.
 

Mark_Aurel

First Post
Mog Elffoe said:
Uh... What version of Superman: Red Son did you read? Superman becomes a global dictator in that book, who lobotomizes his enemies using super science, and follows in Stalin's footsteps. That's a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman? Wha...!? Okay, your idea of Superman and my idea of Superman are WA-A-A-AY different...

I did like Red Son, as an Elseworlds story. It was a good read, mainly for the Lex Luthor character and how his storyline plays out.

I do believe that Millar has an affection for Superman, though. His Adventures of Superman comics were excellent. If you wanted to say that Millar presented a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman in those comics I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

In Red Son, though? No way. Not even close. That was the point of the Superman character in Red Son.

I would respectfully disagree with that. Superman in Red Son is one of the first renditions of Superman in quite a while to capture an essential 'Superman-ness' that's usually missing from the monthlies. All the essential elements of the mythos is there, bar kryptonite, though in different and unique ways.

One of the more interesting aspects of the Superman character has always been his sociological impact. Superman has usually in the comics tended to adopt a passive stance with regards to humanity - he will fix big natural disasters and save lives, beat down alien invasions and such, but usually try to leave human social and technological development alone. There is a number of Superman stories in which he crosses that line, and those are remarkable for that reason alone. This issue, of Superman's sociological impact on humanity, was addressed by Elliot S. Maggin in the Silver Age, often considered the definitive Superman writer, when Superman was essentially put on trial by a cosmic tribunal of sorts. There have been many tales since in the same vein, such as the Armageddon 2001 Annual Elseworlds special from '91, where Superman becomes president of the US, or the more recent Superman: King of the World. Red Son is, in many ways, a more extended version of this kind of take on the character. The Superman movie (the first one, which is also by far the best) also had a very strong emphasis on this motif, with Jor-El's doctrine of non-interference in human history, which Superman violates in the end to save Lois Lane.

Superman's motives in Red Son are inherently good. The triggering event that caused him to embark on the path he took was in issue #1, when he met Lana, and saw that people were starving, due to the inefficiencies of the communist system. 'Tell your friends they don't have to be scared or hungry anymore, comrades. Superman is here to rescue them.' That's a fairly nice and representative slogan for Superman, wouldn't you say? That's what his mission in this book is. To better humanity's lot.

Now, a core conflict in Superman's character has always been the perfection - the 'super' - against the humanity. Superman isn't flawless. He makes mistakes. In Red Son, his mistake is that in saving humanity, he also makes humanity dependent upon him, taking away all freedom. The reprogrammed insurgents are both symbolic of this, and a form of foreshadowing. It is perhaps a somewhat blunt way of showing exactly where Superman is going too far.

In the end, the defining moment of the book is when Superman realizes his error. When all hope seems lost, all resistance crushed, the single sentence that Luthor composed shows him his mistake. It is then shown that he has been manipulated by Brainiac for years; that is also shown previously in the conversations in #3. In this part of the story, Superman's defeat of Brainiac is highly symbolic of his coming to the realization that controlling humanity the way he has done is wrong. His final, heroic act, is to save the Earth from the exploding Brainiac vessel. That is also a thoroughly Superman-esque act, in the non-interventionistic sense. Self-sacrificing, noble, and heroic.

Unlike a real dictator, Superman was never evil, vicious, or paranoid. He had certain ideals that he stood by. They were essentially the same as the regular Superman's, but colored by his communist background. That said, this story doesn't really have political undertones as much as it uses the political backdrop to tell a specific type of story, set in a familiar style. Any dictator is bad, no matter which 'system' or 'ideology' he confesses to. But sometimes, a dictator is better than the alternative.

There have been other Superman stories which went in similar ways - Kingdom Come is one example. Superman makes mistake upon mistake in how he handles things, and in the end, it all comes crashing down on him. Kingdom Come has a lot of similarities to Red Son in that regard, except that there, Superman isn't alone. Kingdom Come had other themes too, such as the very 90ish conflict between 'humanity and superhumanity.'

Red Son is a brilliant take on Superman, because it addresses not just most of the famous elements of the Superman mythology, and some of the DCU, but because of the way Superman is portrayed. As ever, he wants to help people - but he makes a mistake and goes too far. When he realizes it, he drops it all in the blink of an eye. It's also great how Millar manages to paint both Luthor and Superman as both hero and villain, and make it believeable, while staying true to the genre.

In terms of being a Superman story, there's much more depth to this than 'Superman becomes a global dictator.' It's a story that actually has a heart. And it has a great ending. Last time there was a Superman story with similar heart in the main books was Action #775 - Superman vs the Elite [Authority]. And before that, you have to really start reaching deep into the barrel. Godfall tried, but didn't quite make it, IMO.
 

Mog Elffoe

Explorer
Sorry about the thread hijack here, DanMcS.

Mark_Aurel said:
Superman's motives in Red Son are inherently good. The triggering event that caused him to embark on the path he took was in issue #1, when he met Lana, and saw that people were starving, due to the inefficiencies of the communist system. 'Tell your friends they don't have to be scared or hungry anymore, comrades. Superman is here to rescue them.' That's a fairly nice and representative slogan for Superman, wouldn't you say? That's what his mission in this book is. To better humanity's lot.

Sure, Superman's motives are good, but the means he uses to achieve these ends most definitely are not. Lobotomizing everyone who thinks differently than you is not good, no matter how you present it. You might make the argument that Brainiac influenced those decisions, but the simple fact of the matter is those aren't the kinds of things a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman would do. I enjoyed Red Son a good deal, but that statement is simply wrong. Sorry.
 

Mark_Aurel

First Post
Mog Elffoe said:
Sorry about the thread hijack here, DanMcS.



Sure, Superman's motives are good, but the means he uses to achieve these ends most definitely are not. Lobotomizing everyone who thinks differently than you is not good, no matter how you present it. You might make the argument that Brainiac influenced those decisions, but the simple fact of the matter is those aren't the kinds of things a 'close to perfect rendition' of Superman would do. I enjoyed Red Son a good deal, but that statement is simply wrong. Sorry.

How exactly do you pronounce an opinion to be wrong? I might as well say that since you're probably less knowledgeable of Superman than I am, you're wrong. I'm not, however, because your opinion is your opinion, and you're entitled to that.

Now, if your point is coming down to the human reprogramming deal, fine. You're still putting it in the wrong light. Superman didn't lobotomize everyone that thought differently than him. He lobotomized those that threatened the stability of the state - criminals and rebels. I didn't see him suppressing dissenting opinions any more than he conquered the world by force of arms. He wanted to convince everyone he was right by peaceful means. The scene where he talks to Brainiac in #3 is very telling that regard.

Now, there's the moral implications and questions of the method used. Superman has long had a code against killing. Superman doesn't kill. Period. Is messing with someone's mind worse? Would it be better to have the 'criminal impulses' removed from one's brain? Today, we sometimes perform chemical castrations on pedophiles, 'reprogramming' their sex drives. Is that inherently wrong? They become better citizens afterwards. Or, for that matter, was it right of Superman all those times back in the day when he'd use super-hypnosis to hide his secret identity?

Now, I don't think the whole reprogramming thing was right. I do think it can be considered justifiable to some, and I do think it's a method our society would actually consider in some cases, were it available. I think it was very symbolic of what he was doing on a larger scale, however. It showed on an individual scale what his rulership did to all of humanity. The rulership being a monumental mistake he repented and reversed in the blink of an eye.

A lot of what Superman is about is the conflict between the human and the godly. It's a pretty central theme. In this case, he overstepped his limits, and tried to be too much God. No man, no matter how great, should have absolute rulership over all other men. Rulership wasn't an end, but a means to an end. It's just that the means undermined the meaning of the end, which is the central realization for Superman in the story, and which restores the human balance to his character. This is pretty clearly symbolized by Clark Kent at Luthor's funeral later on.

Now, if there ever was a moment of truly undermining who and what Superman is, it wasn't in Red Son. Try the final Superman issue of the Byrne run for that.
 


Villano

First Post
beta-ray said:
Not sure what this has to do with anything...

I was just setting up where I got what I next posted. I figured that if I said that I got the info off of a site dedicated to black superheroes, someone would say, "What's the URL?" (I know I would have :D ). Then I would have to explain that I don't know because I don't go there anymore and why. I figured that I could save time by getting that all out at the beginning.


*shrug* Different mediums... why is the comparison relevant? And since you said most, maybe that's true. But some can and do. Also, the reverse may be true as well.

I don't fully understand the comparison to the remake machine entirely... At least they are indicating the new line of comics in the title...

That was in reference to my comments, "I'm not sure if it speaks ill of the audience, who won't accept anything new, or the writers, who don't have the talent to create anything original that's good", and, later, "Truth to be told, most comic writers couldn't cut it if they had to try writing a novel or a screenplay." I was pointing out that writers of today don't seem capable of original ideas that can stand on their own merit.

Spider-Man, along with Superman and Batman, have, what, 5 titles each? Add to that the team books and team-ups. Now we have the Ultimate line which focus on the same characters that Stan Lee or, in the case of Captain America, Golden Age writers created.

It's ike Hollywood and its focus on sequels and remakes. It's a sad day for comics when the most original thing they can do is take the same characters and put them in a new universe.


Mark_Aurel said:
Any report that Mark Millar hates Superman or thinks Superman is a villain would more than likely either be a misunderstanding or a crock.

I just quote them as I see them.


As for 'Anti-Americanism,' he's Scottish, and his father was engaged in left-wing politics. I've never seen Millar express any specific hatred or malice towards the USA, however. Different perspective or worldview than an American? You bet.

I'd agree with you if Millar's statements consisted of something more than calling certain politicians "Hitler" and the US "Nazi Germany" over and over and over again. There's no differing perspectives or worldviews there, just hurled insults.

If you asked me how I felt about, say, Scotland, and I said, "Scotland? Nazi Germany is more like it. All the politicians are Hitler wannabes and the Scots are brainwashed sheep. Living there is like living under Hitler", would you say I was just expressing a different political perspective or that I was spewing hate?

Look, I understand that people in the world have different opinions. Peter David said he was against the war, but, AFAIK, he never stooped to calling people who disagreed with him "Nazis" or "Hitler". Millar crossed a line, IMO.


Not reading a book because the author comes from a different political background than yourself sounds a bit narrowminded, to be honest.

Well, you can belive what you want, but, as I said, I wouldn't buy something by someone who was Anti-Semetic or racist. It's my money and I simply don't want to give it to someone who's a jerk.


As for living in Scotland, he does. And that line about black people sounds like some throwaway joke more than anything else. I can imagine that Millar might have a more ... coarse sense of humor than you or I do. Most Scottish people I've met do.

Let me ask you, if Millar said that to a group of black people, would they be offended? If he then said he was joking, would they be any less offended?


And I really, really like the Ultimate books.

Well, good for you. As I said, I'm not telling anyone not to buy it, just why I won't.
 

Mog Elffoe

Explorer
Mark_Aurel said:
How exactly do you pronounce an opinion to be wrong? I might as well say that since you're probably less knowledgeable of Superman than I am, you're wrong. I'm not, however, because your opinion is your opinion, and you're entitled to that.

Come on. Anything on a messageboard like this is going to be opinion. Of course it is. I can very easily say that it is MY OPINION that YOUR OPINION is wrong. That's exactly how it works. Pretty simple. I will agree that your knowledge of Superman is impressive, and may possibly surpass my own. Bully for you.

Mark_Aurel said:
Now, if there ever was a moment of truly undermining who and what Superman is, it wasn't in Red Son. Try the final Superman issue of the Byrne run for that.

I never said that Red Son undermined anything. As an Elseworlds story that's not really even an option for it. I just don't think that any Superman story where he is a dictator that lobotomizes his enemies can be qualified as a 'close to perfect rendition' of the character. Other than that one statement I agree with practically everything that you said.
 

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