The Unstoppable Black Dragon
- Thread starter takasi
- Start date
The dragon encounter was there as a meat grinder. Since most people don't have much of an attachment to pregens built for a demo, it was a good excuse to challenge players and see who could beat the dragon.
There were a few bugs in the system: the dragon's AC and Reflex defense were both 2 points too high, but OTOH its breath weapon damage is a little messed up (it should be 2d6 + mods rather than 1d12 + mods; a single 12 sider is too random for a creature's signature ability).
The groups that beat the dragon used some or all of the following tactics:
1. Aid another to boost attacks.
2. Flank with paladin and fighter to lock down the dragon.
3. Use the paladin and fighter's abilities to focus attacks on the toughest characters.
4. Spread the warlock, wizard, and ranger out as far as possible to prevent the dragon from taking on two of them at once.
5. Take advantage of the implications of effects the party can throw on the dragon.
6. Get a little lucky.
Teamwork and the ability to come up with good tactics on the fly was huge. Groups that played like six individuals, rather than as a team, were quickly eaten.
Table skill in 4e is a much bigger part of the game. It isn't enough to find the best spell or maneuver on a class's list. You also have to learn how you and your buddies can best use it.
There were a few bugs in the system: the dragon's AC and Reflex defense were both 2 points too high, but OTOH its breath weapon damage is a little messed up (it should be 2d6 + mods rather than 1d12 + mods; a single 12 sider is too random for a creature's signature ability).
The groups that beat the dragon used some or all of the following tactics:
1. Aid another to boost attacks.
2. Flank with paladin and fighter to lock down the dragon.
3. Use the paladin and fighter's abilities to focus attacks on the toughest characters.
4. Spread the warlock, wizard, and ranger out as far as possible to prevent the dragon from taking on two of them at once.
5. Take advantage of the implications of effects the party can throw on the dragon.
6. Get a little lucky.
Teamwork and the ability to come up with good tactics on the fly was huge. Groups that played like six individuals, rather than as a team, were quickly eaten.
Table skill in 4e is a much bigger part of the game. It isn't enough to find the best spell or maneuver on a class's list. You also have to learn how you and your buddies can best use it.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
mearls said:
D'oh. I would have hit three more times, then.
So we might have gotten it down to half.The biggest problem for us was that by losing initiative, visibility, and being stunned and acid-breathed, by the time most people got to act, they were nearly dead. So right away the second winds got spent, which killed another round, and the cleric just couldn't keep up after that. The paladin had Dice from Hell, so there was never the chance for any cooperation between her and the fighter. The things +5 to saves meant that the caster's weren't doing much, either.
Being a one-off, I didn't really miind (and I got to play the hero, anyway), and it was fun to see how something a little more complicated than a kobold will play. But it still seemed hard to kill even the one character.
takasi
First Post
Thanks for the response Mike, but I get the feeling that this was a "Disposable Dragon" (which I am frequently Bothered About). What was the water in the room for? Could the dragon retreat? Could he fly around the room? Why was he in the room in the first place?
Also, what about sleep? Does the dragon have a round to head toward the water and wake himself up?
One reason I brought this up in the first place is that some people are walking away from DDXP saying they felt encounters were either cakewalks or TPKs. I think the 4th level dragon is clearly too difficult for a party unless you hamstring it (no room to fly or, since this is a black, swim).
I don't share their experience though. I ran a test this weekend and dropped two characters with 4 kobold skirmishers, which is about what I was hoping the EL system should do.
Also, what about sleep? Does the dragon have a round to head toward the water and wake himself up?
One reason I brought this up in the first place is that some people are walking away from DDXP saying they felt encounters were either cakewalks or TPKs. I think the 4th level dragon is clearly too difficult for a party unless you hamstring it (no room to fly or, since this is a black, swim).
I don't share their experience though. I ran a test this weekend and dropped two characters with 4 kobold skirmishers, which is about what I was hoping the EL system should do.
Of course it was a disposable dragon. It was an entire disposable dungeon! That was the whole idea.
You should really be feeling sorry for the kobolds. Just as it was logical to put the big killer encounter at the very end, it would have been logical to make sure that the earlier encounters were easier so that the players would be assured of reaching the end. That means the kobolds were doubly screwed.
Poor kobolds.
You should really be feeling sorry for the kobolds. Just as it was logical to put the big killer encounter at the very end, it would have been logical to make sure that the earlier encounters were easier so that the players would be assured of reaching the end. That means the kobolds were doubly screwed.
Poor kobolds.
The dragon was intentionally hamstrung a little - no real room to fly, not much water to swim around in, to give the party some chance of victory and to force the action. Since it was a demo, we didn't want the fight dragging on too long.
There was no story reason for the dragon to be there, other than to eat PCs. Again, as a demo the adventure's entire purpose was to give people a chance to check out the game. The encounters served to show off the mechanics, specifically combat and traps.
The encounter's difficulty came down to two things: had the party saved its daily attacks, and did the party work together as a team? If the answer to both those was yes, then the party had a half decent chance of victory.
IMO, Scalegloom Hall followed a classic D&D progression of difficulty: the first few encounters were easy, but the difficulty scaled up quickly as you reached the demo's climax. If you never reached the dragon, it might've felt easy. If you did reach the dragon but made the earlier fights even easier by using daily abilities, then the final fight was overwhelming. That's not unlike earlier editions, where a wizard or cleric who burns his high level spells early on might regret not saving them later. The game quite intentionally holds on to that strategic level of planning and risk.
There was no story reason for the dragon to be there, other than to eat PCs. Again, as a demo the adventure's entire purpose was to give people a chance to check out the game. The encounters served to show off the mechanics, specifically combat and traps.
The encounter's difficulty came down to two things: had the party saved its daily attacks, and did the party work together as a team? If the answer to both those was yes, then the party had a half decent chance of victory.
IMO, Scalegloom Hall followed a classic D&D progression of difficulty: the first few encounters were easy, but the difficulty scaled up quickly as you reached the demo's climax. If you never reached the dragon, it might've felt easy. If you did reach the dragon but made the earlier fights even easier by using daily abilities, then the final fight was overwhelming. That's not unlike earlier editions, where a wizard or cleric who burns his high level spells early on might regret not saving them later. The game quite intentionally holds on to that strategic level of planning and risk.
Stormtower
First Post
I was one of the players in the Thursday 1pm slot that James Wyatt detailed in his blog. It was great to have my first taste of the 4e rules with one of the core members of R&D. James is a fun DM and was excited to share as much of the mechanics of the game as he could.
The dragon encounter was difficult indeed. We had a smart table who learned quickly to work together well, but none of us could make our saves against the ongoing breath, and we also failed Perception checks so the dragon got its surprise round (Darkness, breath). Even worse, it won initiative so it got another suite of actions before the first PC could act in Round 1 Actual. It blocked us from actually getting into the room and most of the battle took place in the corridor, which made us cry.
However, them's the breaks of initiative. You pays yer money, you takes yer chances.
Despite our poor start, we almost bloodied the thing (I think we reduced it to 167/280). I played Corrin, the halfling paladin, and I would've been the 4th casualty had I not rolled two straight 20's on death saves. The encounter was challenging and entertaining, and I didn't think it was unfair, just extremely difficult. We didn't encounter any black-flame braziers or such... just the horrible acidic fury that was the dragon. Despite having three deaths, we felt that we gave it our best effort. The dice were unkind in that encounter, especially the "clinging" ongoing 5 acid damage each round. The stun and the dragon's APs was just insult to injury. But I wouldn't trade the experience for anything... it was a suitably epic battle for 1st-level PCs. Keep in mind it was a Level 4 Solo monster: a suitable challenge for a party of five 4th-level characters. It was there to kill the disposable pregens and show off the system's capabilities for monsters (James said as much).
Someone up in this thread said the 3.5 LG Special was harder. We played that one at APL6 and I agree that it was harder, but our superior system knowledge of 3.5 prevented any deaths (we finished the special; achieved all objectives).
Thanks to playing with Mr. Wyatt and piggybacking on his 4e system knowledge and willingness to teach, I felt much more confident in the LFR preview 1 (Sembia), which we breezed through in comparison to Scalegloom. My experiences with 4e in the two previews, as well as the Delve, convinced me that 4E is worth supporting for organized play. I'll be DM'ing LFR modules in 4E for years to come, but I will keep the flame of my beloved 3.5E alive for Gaia's Dream, Pathfinder and the DCC World of Aereth.
Nick
The dragon encounter was difficult indeed. We had a smart table who learned quickly to work together well, but none of us could make our saves against the ongoing breath, and we also failed Perception checks so the dragon got its surprise round (Darkness, breath). Even worse, it won initiative so it got another suite of actions before the first PC could act in Round 1 Actual. It blocked us from actually getting into the room and most of the battle took place in the corridor, which made us cry.
However, them's the breaks of initiative. You pays yer money, you takes yer chances.Despite our poor start, we almost bloodied the thing (I think we reduced it to 167/280). I played Corrin, the halfling paladin, and I would've been the 4th casualty had I not rolled two straight 20's on death saves. The encounter was challenging and entertaining, and I didn't think it was unfair, just extremely difficult. We didn't encounter any black-flame braziers or such... just the horrible acidic fury that was the dragon. Despite having three deaths, we felt that we gave it our best effort. The dice were unkind in that encounter, especially the "clinging" ongoing 5 acid damage each round. The stun and the dragon's APs was just insult to injury. But I wouldn't trade the experience for anything... it was a suitably epic battle for 1st-level PCs. Keep in mind it was a Level 4 Solo monster: a suitable challenge for a party of five 4th-level characters. It was there to kill the disposable pregens and show off the system's capabilities for monsters (James said as much).
Someone up in this thread said the 3.5 LG Special was harder. We played that one at APL6 and I agree that it was harder, but our superior system knowledge of 3.5 prevented any deaths (we finished the special; achieved all objectives).
Thanks to playing with Mr. Wyatt and piggybacking on his 4e system knowledge and willingness to teach, I felt much more confident in the LFR preview 1 (Sembia), which we breezed through in comparison to Scalegloom. My experiences with 4e in the two previews, as well as the Delve, convinced me that 4E is worth supporting for organized play. I'll be DM'ing LFR modules in 4E for years to come, but I will keep the flame of my beloved 3.5E alive for Gaia's Dream, Pathfinder and the DCC World of Aereth.
Nick
takasi
First Post
Thanks again Mike.
One person commented:
"...it often seemed as if PCs were either 'coasting' through adventuring challenges in the new edition, or 'completely terrified' by foes that wildly overmatched them."
I'm thinking this is the result of throwing a level 4 solo at them, even if it had its wings tied behind its back. I think if people experience more level 1 encounters they'll see that sometimes they're not as lucky and that's when it hits the fan.
One person commented:
"...it often seemed as if PCs were either 'coasting' through adventuring challenges in the new edition, or 'completely terrified' by foes that wildly overmatched them."
I'm thinking this is the result of throwing a level 4 solo at them, even if it had its wings tied behind its back. I think if people experience more level 1 encounters they'll see that sometimes they're not as lucky and that's when it hits the fan.
Zaruthustran
The tingling means it’s working!
takasi said:
I think the Dragon encounter was part of a Delve, which is a kind of demo game for conventions that is intentionally story-lite (or even story-free). The purpose of Delve demos is specifically to introduce players to the combat mechanics of D&D. And that's the only purpose. Delves aren't "adventures" or modules; they're combat encounters stacked one after the other.
I find that they're really fun 30-minute diversions, and a quick & easy way to try out multiple character builds/roles. For example, in my home campaign I play a light melee combatant (multiclass rogue/ranger/fighter/scout/wildrunner/shadowdancer). I hadn't played a caster or big dumb fighter in *years*. So at PAX 2007 I sat down and played through three delves, each time picking something different (blaster caster, AoE caster, healer). It was a fun diversion to my normal D&D experience.
Anyway, point is: the purpose of the dragon encounter was for 6 players to throw themselves against a dragon and see how the fight shakes out. Retreat or any other tactics that get in the way of resolving the combat would defeat the purpose. The players showed up to chop (or get eaten by a dragon). They did no show up to chase the dragon around or learn the "hold your breath" and swimming rules.
takasi said:
You know, there are other qualifications for a residence than, "Is this a good place for me to fight to the death in?"
Things like:
A handy tribe of kobold slaves.
Convenient to caravan routes and cattle herds for snacking and raiding.
Pre-built and ready to be moved into immediately.
Not already occupied by a creature I don't want to risk fighting.
It's only a 4th level dragon, after all. Sometimes when house-hunting you have to take what's available, even if it lacks features that would make it ideal.
