D&D 4E The Usage of the Non-Sequitur "4e is a Tactical Skirmish Game"

[GreyICE]

1e is an incredible game that still runs wonderfully today. And I'm not just saying this because I grew up on it - I ran a mini-campaign in it very recently, before the responsibilities of parenthood took their toll.

I'd run it again in a heartbeat.

I really, really don't get the contempt that some 3e/4e fans have for the game. It's baffling to me. I can understand not wanting to play it - it's a different sort of beast - but contempt? That's crazy to me.

-O

Elf is a class. I'm not necessarily strongly about simulationism, but you're telling me that EVERY Elf made by EVERY PC in EVERY Campaign has the same set of abilities?

I mean some of this stuff is just... clumsy. In the extreme. I'll happily agree that with nothing to compare it to that it was an amazing game, and certainly you can't blame it for its shortcomings, but... it has em.

 

[Ferghis]

Elf is a class.

You're mistaking first edition with BECMI, or the red box stuff, or earlier versions of the game. Elves, and any other race in first edition, are a race than can take on many classes.

I'd like to xp Obryn for pointing out OSRIC, but I have to spread the love first.

 

[Obryn]

Elf is a class. I'm not necessarily strongly about simulationism, but you're telling me that EVERY Elf made by EVERY PC in EVERY Campaign has the same set of abilities?

I mean some of this stuff is just... clumsy. In the extreme. I'll happily agree that with nothing to compare it to that it was an amazing game, and certainly you can't blame it for its shortcomings, but... it has em.

No, Elf is a race in AD&D. It's a class in RC/BECMI/BX. (And those are still, also incredible games.)

Why do you need to compare it to anything? Of course, AD&D and RC have nowhere near the PC customization options of 3e or 4e. That's part of the point, honestly. It doesn't make it a better game, nor a worse one. It lends itself to a certain playstyle and experience of play, which is the purpose of a good game.

-O

 

[GreyICE]

No, Elf is a race in AD&D. It's a class in RC/BECMI/BX. (And those are still, also incredible games.)

Why do you need to compare it to anything? Of course, AD&D and RC have nowhere near the PC customization options of 3e or 4e. That's part of the point, honestly. It doesn't make it a better game, nor a worse one. It lends itself to a certain playstyle and experience of play, which is the purpose of a good game.

-O

AD&D is the king of customization if you start adding every single module and product ever produced in. Kits changed everything. I mean there were more niche rules about how to change pretty much every feature of a class that AD&D, by the end of its run, was the 'no two people play the same game.'

 

[Obryn]

AD&D is the king of customization if you start adding every single module and product ever produced in. Kits changed everything. I mean there were more niche rules about how to change pretty much every feature of a class that AD&D, by the end of its run, was the 'no two people play the same game.'

Well, AD&D has the blessing and curse of having no unified mechanics. This means two things. (1) The system can be overcomplicated at times. Really, the DMG versions of Psionics and unarmed combat are a mess. (2) It's impressively customizable, because there's no underlying framework you need to avoid.

So no, nobody played the same game. But the framework is almost always recognizable.

Kits and the like were more 2e. I vastly prefer 1e for a few reasons, none of which are probably relevant to this thread.

-O

 

[GreyICE]

Hah, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. And far be it from me to knock the idea that 1st Ed is "having fun the wrong way." If you like it, you like it. It's certainly nothing like 2E/3E/4E.

I will say in terms of having a coherent mechanical framework that drives the system, it's been a steady progression from 1E-2E-3E-4E getting more coherent and better planned. But if coherent universal frameworks dictated superiority in fun we'd all be playing GURPS.

 

[Obryn]

Hah, I agree with pretty much everything you're saying. And far be it from me to knock the idea that 1st Ed is "having fun the wrong way." If you like it, you like it. It's certainly nothing like 2E/3E/4E.

No, it's not like any of those. (Well, it's a lot like 2e, but the differences are key.) And that's the point. It's the same reason why I'd prefer WFRP2e to some other game, or Savage Worlds. Different game, different assumptions. Your goal is fun.

For my money, 1e AD&D is a genre all its own; there's no better system for those classic 1e adventures.

I will say in terms of having a coherent mechanical framework that drives the system, it's been a steady progression from 1E-2E-3E-4E getting more coherent and better planned. But if coherent universal frameworks dictated superiority in fun we'd all be playing GURPS.

Oh, there's no doubt that 1e is a tangled mess. OSRIC is one attempt to unify it while changing very little. It's still a game experience all its own.

-O