The vampire starts with just 2 healing surges

[webrunner]

I'm curious what your thoughts are on what they did not get right. Taking it a step further, is developing a new class a better solution? If you get a moment, read an article I just put up today -> Loremaster - Game Design: Foundational Layers for 4e

Well, look at all the ways they've been doing it:

1- Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies (ie, archlich) -
2-Sseparate class -this has it's own problems, obviously
3- Themes are only choosable at level 1, and haven't yet been "grandfathered in" to D&D core rules.
4- Feat sequences - hard to make them worth all the necessary feats

None of them really do the same thing as templates - allow a player to be modified later at an arbitrary time.

I'm not saying classes are better, but I'm saying they determined to do it for vampire because none of their other options really fit as well.

 

[Matt James]

I should clarify-- the themes/templates would be applied at the given time, not unlike how a players chooses a paragon path at level 11. In fact, it would still be called a paragon path. Multiclassing, similarly, would still be multiclassing (etc...)

As for why they chose to do the Vampire the way they did, I cannot say. Somewhere in a design meeting, they decided to go this way. I'm not arguing against it, I am just of the opinion that a theme/template-based solution might have been more equitable. In all honesty, when I take a deeper look at this new class, I might get a better understanding of why it was done this way. I'm not attempting to rebuke their decision--rather offer an alternate view and present some of the benefits of doing it this way. I have no dog in this race other than to present a different view on design implementation.

I'm not sure who designed the Vampire, but I recall someone saying it was Mearls? That guy is a genius in my book, regardless of what some might say about him. I've followed him since Iron Kingdoms and he is a proficient and talented game designer (and above all, a friend).

 

[triqui]

I think they went with full class instead of theme becouse they wanted to experiment with the 2 healing surges thing. A theme that add things feels nice, but a theme that *subtract* things from your character might be harder to "sell" to the fanbase.

And honestrly, a high Con Warden with bloodsucking ability to soak up more healing surges might be a little bit over the top

EDIT: however, something akin to the Dhampyr, or Vryloka, might easily do the trick for other classes with vampiric theme.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

EDIT: however, something akin to the Dhampyr, or Vryloka, might easily do the trick for other classes with vampiric theme.

I like the layers of options... X class y race with a feat chain... X class and a vampire race or vamp class and y race...

Add a vampire theme and every option will be there

 

[pauljathome]

Am I the only one who finds the flavour wonky?

A lot of people are praising the flavour of the vampire class.

But it seems very, very off to me that the expectation is that the other party members will ALLOW THE VAMPIRE TO DRAIN THEIR BLOOD.

Sure, from a game mechanical view point you're just giving up a healing surge and it is no different from giving one to an artificer or a ritual.

But from the flavour perspective it seems incredibly different to me.

I know that a great many characters that I play would be quite willing to give a healing surge via magical means but NOT by offering up my neck for a vampire to suck.

Part of that, of course, is a trust issue. Maybe after I'd adventured with the guy for 10 levels I'd change my mind. But at first level? Or after just meeting him? No way.

 

[triqui]

I know that a great many characters that I play would be quite willing to give a healing surge via magical means but NOT by offering up my neck for a vampire to suck.

Or just cut your hand, put the blood in a vial, and give it to him. It's not really something that never happens in vampiric stories: the mortal friend giving blood to his fellow vampire and all that.

Sure that doing it in *every* encounter is a bit overdoing it

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think this is really, really condescending and I just don't get it. Why are "dark evil bastard loner" fantasies any more moronic than "I can control matter with my brain" power fantasies? Or "I'm going to play a Fighter with 20 strength haha who's the jock stuffing nerds into lockers now" fantasies? Or "I'm going to play a bard with 20 Charisma, can I make a roll to seduce the elven princess" fantasies?

Why is one person's preferred flavor of fantasy fun less valid than yours?

Actually... all the fantasies you pointed out are just as moronic.

Hell, EVERY fantasy is moronic to a certain extent. I have no wool over my eyes thinking that when sit around a dining table speaking in a funny voice and acting as though I'm a scion of a merchant house with a magical mark upon my face that allows me to affect the weather... that it isn't just slightly stupid in the grand scheme of things. Most hobbies often are. I'm not afraid to admit it.

But that doesn't change the fact that *IF* you are going to do it... actually do it. Take some time with it. Consider it. Think about it. Use your brain, and your creativity, and your imagination and actually WORK at it. Become a more productive member of our gaming community.

And I know we hate to admit it to ourselves... but we ALL know those players who are giving our game and ourselves as gamers a bad name. And if what I post here can affect even a single person to not reflexively want to play a Vampire for no other reason than "VAMPIRES KEWL ROXOR BADASS!", but choose to play a Vampire because of the interesting roleplaying challenge that being this kind of character represents... then I feel better about being a member of this community.

I don't want my fellow gamers to be morons. I want to help them learn. This game is so much better when you actually understand it. And if that makes me a bad guy that I don't want my fellow players to spend their lives sitting in the darkness of the mindless pop culture vacuum of space... then so be it. I'll take my slings and arrows from you all.

(Of course, let's be honest, I probably deserve those sling and arrows anyway, because the cynic in us all knows quite well that the people for which my posts apply will read them and say "Pff! That's not me!" and ignore it anyway. So I'm basically peeing into the wind here. But at least I realize it and can laugh it off as being a pointless exercise. The important thing here is that it's keeping me from being bored at work.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Or just cut your hand, put the blood in a vial, and give it to him. It's not really something that never happens in vampiric stories: the mortal friend giving blood to his fellow vampire and all that.

Sure that doing it in *every* encounter is a bit overdoing it

I love the idea of letting an old friend... But I agree with the last post, not someone I just met.

I think the "kiss" of a vampire is a intamit act

 

[pauljathome]

Or just cut your hand, put the blood in a vial, and give it to him. It's not really something that never happens in vampiric stories: the mortal friend giving blood to his fellow vampire and all that.

Sure that doing it in *every* encounter is a bit overdoing it

I admit that my basic view of vampires now mostly comes from Buffy, which is hardly canonical.

But I think some of the tropes from there are fairly common.

Vampires drinking human blood tends to be bad. It makes them harder to control, more feral, etc.

And they develop a taste for the person who's blood they drink.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Maybe be fed on by a vampire in the party is like how being fed on by a vampire in Vampire: the Masquerade/Requiem is where it's usually pleasurable, but bad for your health.

On the subject of leaders with healing powers that don't require healing surges, I think it's the Ardent that has the most of those. Somehow I think any that Ardent which ends up in a party with a vampire should probably take the Siphon paragon path, which is basically the psychic vampire path.