The Warlord, about it's past present and future, pitfalls and solutions. (Please calling all warlord players)

[Garthanos]

I want all mid battle healing inspirational an proportionate ... or non existant

 

[Garthanos]

AndI honestly cant see implementing that as a houserule without just outlawing the currently obligatory cleric and watching the games assumptions collapse

 

[Jester David]

This more or less exemplifies the design philosophy issue I'm talking about. If hit points are defined in such a way that a warlord's inspirational healing all of a sudden seems cleric-like to the designers, I'm not a fan.

Healing's a pretty important function, when it comes down to it, and always has been. I've seen nothing so far to indicate that healing will somehow become unimportant in Next; indeed, since HP/damage are the major scaling mechanics, it's going to be as vital as ever. I'll say it plainly: Next shouldn't necessitate a cleric in the party. If divine spellcasters are the only ones who can actually heal HPs rather than some kind of also-ran like temp HPs or damage reduction, we're (1) back to needing magic to solve all the party's problems, and (2) right back to needing a cleric.

-O

I don't want a cleric to mandatory, but neither do I want a cleric analogue to be mandatory. Extra healing should be a bonus regardless of the source.
Having all leader classes heal just mandates their need, and means fights need to be designed so healing is useful so as to not waste a universal class feature.

Combat roles are a handy party design tool, but they were a mistake as a game design element.

The warlord should be more than a cleric for people who don't like clerics. It shouldn't be pidgeonholed into the healer role. That's what the healer speciality is for.

 

[Garthanos]

And clerics healing characters potentially to full health at level 1, in a game where one hit takes you down... doesn't mandate a cleric?

Not sure exactly how much healing makes itself obligatory... we are talking about psychology... ummm anybody with sound theories on this?

- cause I don't have any.

 

[Obryn]

I don't want a cleric to mandatory, but neither do I want a cleric analogue to be mandatory. Extra healing should be a bonus regardless of the source.
Having all leader classes heal just mandates their need, and means fights need to be designed so healing is useful so as to not waste a universal class feature.

The thing is? You're not describing Next here. Not as the system stands. The design core has damage and HPs as the major scaling element.

But sure - show me a system where healing is not vital* and we'll talk. It's simply not the case now.

Combat roles are a handy party design tool, but they were a mistake as a game design element.

The warlord should be more than a cleric for people who don't like clerics. It shouldn't be pidgeonholed into the healer role. That's what the healer speciality is for.

Again, this is an example of design decisions I find regressive. Roles are just an acknowledgement that classes often have jobs. If you need healing, and a cleric is the only one who can heal, you're making a cleric mandatory. By expanding the healing role to include other classes, you're at least doing part of the job and making it so it's not always the cleric.

Yes, warlords and clerics should have different niches. They certainly did in 4e, and the similar healing mechanic never overshadowed those distinctions.

-O

Edited:

* Or, more to the point, hugely helpful to the point where it'd be silly to leave home without a healer.

 

[FireLance]

I think the italics might have made my point a little too subtle. Maybe I should have used bold or underline instead.

 

[Garthanos]

Because it doesn't mean Archmage. It's the class's name. Much like a new Wizard is still learning to Wizard, a new Warlord is still learning to Warlord.


How about making Wizard and Cleric "prestige classes"?

-O

Works for me.. thats obviously an acolyte not a true Cleric.
pages are analogous to apprentices
squires are analogous to journeymen


How about the first 4 levels getting titles that show how incompetent and incomplete they really are...

 

[Garthanos]

I think the italics might have made my point a little too subtle. Maybe I should have used bold or underline instead.

Huh... where you lost me.

 

[Obryn]

I think the italics might have made my point a little too subtle. Maybe I should have used bold or underline instead.

I was using tapatalk and not paying enough attention. I got you now!

-O

 

[pemerton]

if that class is going to get a different name, what should the name be?

The only candidate I know is "captain" - which is the word that Tolkien uses to describe that sort of character in LotR.

It seems really odd to me to hang your opinion of an entire game based on whether or not some dude can scream HPs back at you.

I still think someone not playing the game because of one thing they dislike is a little too Manichean for me to not be mystified by it.

<snip>

I disagree that you can somehow divine an entire design ethos from a single rule like that.

<snip>

It doesn't seem particular to you, either (I've had convos with pemerton where he seems to feel much the same way)

I'm not 100% sure what I'm supposed to be Manichean about.

I've never played an RPG where "some dude can scream HPs back at you" - though I have played more than one where hit point loss can measure declining morale and energy, and in one of those systems the well-timed words of a battle leader can reinvigorate and restore courage. (Tolkien, and romantic fantasy more generally, is my background model for this. I wouldn't expect to find such a mechanic in a game whose underlying feel was cynical - like The Dying Earth - or "magic as technology" - like some contemporary fantasy.)

I also agree with [MENTION=11821]Obryn[/MENTION] that the presence or absence of a mechanic can shed light on a game's "ethos" and the sorts of play and fiction it will support. I prefer to play a game that will support the sort of fiction I prefer, via the mechanical resolution that I enjoy.

Consider Burning Wheel, for instance. Despite its generally gritty tone, it has PC (and NPC) morale as an important factor in combat resolution (via the Steel stat), has a Command skill that boosts Steel, and has second-wind type actions for shrugging off wound penalties. So in BW there are moments, in play, in which morale, and resolution, and the support of a battle captain, shape how things unfold.

That is definitely something that appeals to me in a fantasy RPG.