D&D 5E The Warlord shouldn't be a class... change my mind!

[Tony Vargas]

Having extra attack, by itself, wouldn’t put them on the same footing as a 1/2 caster warrior. It would put them on equal footing with a cleric with cantrips.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You are not valuing at-will weapon attacks as highly as 5e seems to have, based on the designs in the PH.

And based on simplistic DPR calculations:

A cantrip does 1d of damage, at 5th, 2d.​

A weapon attack does 1d+modifier, and extra attack does that twice.​

AFAIK, clerics don't have a facile way of getting at stat modifier added to their cantrip damage, so, if one were to invest in a high weapon attack stat, it'd be doing pretty close to double the average damage of a cantrip.

Now, I'm not saying any of the above is "right" per se, but it does seem like 5e class & sub-class designs are handled that way. At-will damage-grinding is highly valued, because it's multiplied out by the many rounds of the prescribed 6-8 encounter day.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think I'm beginning to see the problem. You are not valuing at-will weapon attacks as highly as 5e seems to have, based on the designs in the PH.

And based on simplistic DPR calculations:

A cantrip does 1d of damage, at 5th, 2d.​

A weapon attack does 1d+modifier, and extra attack does that twice.​

AFAIK, clerics don't have a facile way of getting at stat modifier added to their cantrip damage, so, if one were to invest in a high weapon attack stat, it'd be doing pretty close to double the average damage of a cantrip.

Now, I'm not saying any of the above is "right" per se, but it does seem like 5e class & sub-class designs are handled that way. At-will damage-grinding is highly valued, because it's multiplied out by the many rounds of the prescribed 6-8 encounter day.

The issue is that you’re ignoring rider effects, which are worth at least as much as the +stat to damage, and the value of having multiple choices of magical damage types and different rider effects.

 

[Tony Vargas]

The issue is that you’re ignoring rider effects, which are worth at least as much as the +stat to damage, and the value of having multiple choices of magical damage types and different rider effects.

I don't really want to ignore those things, but I'd have to guess that 5e design, both from the content of the PH, and the comments from MM, largely does. They're 'situational' and if there's a 'best' trick to be played with it then discovering and orchestrating it is legit player fun, &c....

Besides, Clerics don't exactly have a lot of attack cantrips. In the PH, they have one.
d8, radiant, no rider (it forces a save with no benefit from cover, tho, which, I'm afraid, falls into the above)

Next?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The issue is that you’re ignoring rider effects, which are worth at least as much as the +stat to damage, and the value of having multiple choices of magical damage types and different rider effects.

Riders are generally worth around 1 or two points of damage per die, if you compare cantrips to each other.
The reason that I mentioned Extra Attack at level 11 is that that would be where it would stay level with cantrip damage.

In terms of having multiple different riders to choose from, bear in mind that most warrior-types carry more different weapons than most casters have attack cantrips.

 

[Hurin70]

It needs to be the class because it's the only healer class I ever had fun playing.
I guess it only needs to be a class if you want me to heal, or anyone else like me.
Otherwise, shrug.

This ^.

I don't normally play a healer, but I did for 4e, and I ended up loving this class more than any other I have played.

Now it's time for me to be the healer again in 5e, and I am having a much harder time making it interesting. Right now I'm leaning towards a Bard... but I'm sad I'll never get to yell 'Rub Some Dirt On it!' to another party member.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Riders are generally worth around 1 or two points of damage per die, if you compare cantrips to each other.
The reason that I mentioned Extra Attack at level 11 is that that would be where it would stay level with cantrip damage.

In terms of having multiple different riders to choose from, bear in mind that most warrior-types carry more different weapons than most casters have attack cantrips.

Different weapons are comparable to choosing between cantrips, nor does it compare to having magical damage from the jump.

extra attack only even keeps up with cantrips if you also get a damage boost around 11, and/or have some other damage boost feature.

so, works fine on a Cleric.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't really want to ignore those things, but I'd have to guess that 5e design, both from the content of the PH, and the comments from MM, largely does. They're 'situational' and if there's a 'best' trick to be played with it then discovering and orchestrating it is legit player fun, &c....

Besides, Clerics don't exactly have a lot of attack cantrips. In the PH, they have one.
d8, radiant, no rider (it forces a save with no benefit from cover, tho, which, I'm afraid, falls into the above)

Next?

“next?”

do you read your comments before posting them?

anyway, the design very clearly doesn’t ignore any of those things. Cantrips that do literally nothing but deal damage with an attack roll do more damage than those that have som sort of extra factor, which includes ignoring cover while dealing a damage type that isn’t common at-will, is rarely resisted especially at lower levels, and many creatures are vulnerable to.

and they have since expanded the cleric’s attack cantrip list, because they obviously underestimated how many people want to play clerics that wreck stuff more than heal and provide buffs.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Next?

you said it yourself:

and the wheel turns again, and nothing new ever happens.

anyway

anyway, the design very clearly doesn’t ignore any of those things. Cantrips that do literally nothing but deal damage with an attack roll do more damage than those that have som sort of extra factor, which includes ignoring cover

Sure, the highest-damage cantrip is what, a d10, and you can ignore cover with a d8 cantrip... making that 'rider' worth a whole 1 pt of average damage.
5e design just highly-values DPR.

(not say'n it should, just if you come up with a better way to design & balance classes and abilities, the results just might look 'broken' when the inevitable DPR calculations start flying)

 

[Fenris-77]

Technically the highest damage cantrip is Toll the Dead which can do a d12. I've been told by reliable sources that technically correct is the best kind of correct.

Your point about the value placed on DPR by 5e's design remains cogent, despite the technicality of my correctness.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

extra attack only even keeps up with cantrips if you also get a damage boost around 11, and/or have some other damage boost feature.

Lets see . . .
Most basic damage cantrip. No riders that might cause confusion: Fire Bolt
Damage at level 11: 3d10, or 17ish.
Extra attack with a longbow (closest equivalent). Assume stat at 20 but not magic or other bonuses.
Damage at level 11: 2d8+10, or 19ish.

So it looks like we're both wrong. Extra attack at level 11 doesn't stay level with cantrip damage. It surpasses it.