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D&D 4E The "We Can't Roleplay" in 4E Argument

Ryujin

Legend
My players STILL trash-talk the opposition despite having laptops, condition cards, power cards, books, et al crying for their attention. Our skill challenges are more like conversations, in which I occasionally call for a dice roll. Even the knuckle-draggers occasionally speak up, in an interaction challenge, and have positive (or at least humorous) impact on the outcome.
 

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brehobit

Explorer
I think others have nailed it, but here are the problems I have:
  1. 4e largely dropped the idea of simulation. Things are a lot more abstract (from square fireballs to fighter powers that just make no sense to warlords being able to talk people up from unconscious). This can harm immersion.
  2. The "completely heal after a night's sleep thing" is difficult on a massive number of levels. First the loss of simulation. Second it makes encounter design very restricted. A "simple" fight in 3e could actually matter. Real resources could be drained and people had to actually think and take the challenge seriously. Now it doesn't matter much (use encounter powers, do what you can to get surgeless healing) and it just drags. Try to adapt a 1e or 2e module to 4e. It's a lot of work as a number of encounters just can't do the same thing they did before. Third it just hoses the trope of "you're down to your last bit behind enemy lines, but it's do or die" over more than just a single day. Down and out just doesn't exist unless you strip items.
  3. Also, why in the whole world, can only the PCs get up from dropping? Should the NPCs know to finish off the downed characters? This PC/NPC thing is really tricky to deal with. If you are playing "the PCs are ultra-special cool folks blessed by the gods" then it works just fine in the RP. But otherwise you keep hitting all these points of cognitive dissonance.

Is 4e a good game? Certainly. Is it a good RPG? Yes, but it takes either a very good group or very good DM. Us average folks struggle. It's basically the cognitive dissonance.
 
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wedgeski

Adventurer
I can accept that 4E's presentation, and the menu-style of options available in a round of combat, distracts (as opposed to discourages) players from roleplaying in a way that previous editions don't. That's fine. But, saying that d20's vast, cold, negative gulf of null-space where tactical options for martial PC's should have been is somehow a *feature* of the system that has now been *lost* really gets my goat.

I can accept 4E distracts the player from RP, but I think what you get in return is more than worth it.
 

Raven Crowking

First Post
Granted, it is impossible to prevent anyone from role-playing in any game. You can role-play with Monopoly, if you have a mind to. It is also cheaper, and comes with its own minis.

That said, it depends very much what one means by "role-playing". I would consider role-playing to be taking the role of a fictional character within a fictional game milieu, but I would add the caveat that actual "role-playing" isn't based upon colourful descriptions or pithy one-liners, but rather upon identifying with the fiction.

A ruleset for a role-playing game is, therefore, IMHO, an interface to support identification with the fictional persona and setting to occur. And a ruleset can be more -- or less -- successful at doing so.

IMHO, role-playing occurs when the fictional characters/setting are more important that the rules structure that allows interface. I.e., if a rule gives an outcome that jars the fictional setting, the rule should not be applied. Thus the importance -- and primacy -- of Rule 0.

To the degree that a system causes players to focus on the rules structure, that system is going to inhibit role-playing. Not prevent, mind you -- nothing can do that -- but inhibit.

So we add our first rule: "The less rules intrude on the fiction, the more the game supports role-playing."

And, frankly, you can see the same applied to computer games. The more you have to think about what must be done to manipulate your avatar in the computer game, the less enmeshed you are in the computer game's "world". Were this not true, we would still be typing in command codes, and the Wii wouldn't be as popular as it is.

For that matter, many computer games I have played hide your "game stats" (apart from health) for the purpose of fostering identification with the character rather than the stats.

So, we can add: "The less often you have to break from the fiction in order to check your stats/character sheets, the more the game supports role-playing."

I would also add: "The less often you have to break from the fiction in order to check a game board/grid, the more the game supports role-playing."

And herein we see why Monopoly is not ideal as a role-playing game (strong board focus, rules prevent logical actions within the fictional milieu -- such as not trying to stay in a Boardwalk Hotel when you're cash is running out) and where it shines (Minimum of "stats checking" that interferes with your chosen role -- your only "stats" are the properties you own, what you've built on them, and what cash you have).

Obviously, the more familiar you are with any system, the easier it will be to role-play within that system. It is to be expected, with any system, that rules mastery limits the amount of rules checking and character sheet checking, and thus increases the quality of a game vis-a-vis role-playing. The amount of errata (if used) and new material being pumped into a system (again, if used) tends to erode system mastery, however.

Also, one should note that the three rules given above support another, rather obvious conclusion.

1. "The less rules intrude on the fiction, the more the game supports role-playing."

2. "The less often you have to break from the fiction in order to check your stats/character sheets, the more the game supports role-playing."

3. "The less often you have to break from the fiction in order to check a game board/grid, the more the game supports role-playing."

In any edition of the game, when do the rules intrude the most, character sheets need the most checking, and the game board/grid become most relevant? Why, combat, of course!

So,

4. "The less time you spend in combat -- especially in the same long combat, or engaged in the rules minutia of combat -- the more the game supports role-playing."

All IMHO and IME, of course. YMMV.


RC
 

Matt James

Game Developer
I absolutely disagree with your conclusion, Raven. I don't have the time or inclination to debate it in detail though.

If someone is playing D&D and makes a character disinterested in combat and conflict, thus roleplaying such, they are playing the wrong game.

These are cornerstones of the game that supplement exploration and problem-solving. In order to manage the relationship between the storyteller and the participant, rules are used to govern the interaction. it keeps things on an even keel and somewhat fair.

For all of the purist roleplayers out there, you wouldn't need rules. For me, that is not fun. I do not derive enjoyment from that. I like combat systems and character options that work within the framework of a ruleset. It stimulates both sides of my brain and I dig it.
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
4E, because it happily uses some narrative metagaming conceits, can interfere with immersion. Some of the complainers that 4E doesn't support roleplay think that there is no roleplay without immersion. They are wrong.

That 4E doesn't support roleplay is not an argument, but a conclusion. To see what is wrong with that conclusion, look at the starting premise.

That 4E can interfere with immersion (more than prior editions) is, I think, not disputed, and not controversial. The discussion (argument) is on the less sticky question of, "how much?"
 


billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️‍⚧️
If someone is playing D&D and makes a character disinterested in combat and conflict, thus roleplaying such, they are playing the wrong game.

I don't think I could disagree more with this statement.
 

Lindeloef

First Post
It was watching a bard kill three minions in a row with Vicious Mockery that led me to ban bards from every 4E game I ever run*. It's not because I think the class is broken or overpowered or even excessively fiddly... but every time a bard uses a power called "Vicious Mockery" or "Satire of Fortune" or "Disorienting Ditty" to kill something, I start grinding my teeth. Just. Freaking. NO.

Kinda sad move there. In our group it plays out like this: (example with Vicious Mockery)
Bard: You are ugly.
Goblin (with funny accent): Everybody betrayed me! I fed up with this world! (Goblin commits suicide)
Goblin2: Why, Johnny? Why? Johnny, why? Why?

It's always a fun challenge to come up with a ludicrous way for monsters to kill themselves ;)
 

Dausuul

Legend
Kinda sad move there. In our group it plays out like this: (example with Vicious Mockery)
Bard: You are ugly.
Goblin (with funny accent): Everybody betrayed me! I fed up with this world! (Goblin commits suicide)
Goblin2: Why, Johnny? Why? Johnny, why? Why?

It's always a fun challenge to come up with a ludicrous way for monsters to kill themselves ;)

There's nothing wrong with D&D as comedic farce, but not everyone wants or enjoys that. If I wanted a comedy game, I'd be running Paranoia.
 

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