D&D 5E (2014) The woes of the elf and his longsword

[Paraxis]

Heaven forbid they have a non-optimal story based approach to the races. Not everything has to be mechanically advantageous. Elves and longswords have gone back at least as far as 1e. It's a DnD-ism.

Yes but back then it made sense, now there is no reason a longsword would be a traditional weapon of elves, every elf for the most part would have a higher dexterity than strength and so the standard weapon should be a finesse weapon.

Just do as they did in 3e and the above poster suggested and refluff the rapier to an elf blade and give them proficiency in that.

And everything should be mechanically advantageous to someone and longsword proficiency for elves doesn't seem like it would fit any realistic character build. Ohh oh I said build heavens will shatter people optimize build and min/max characters summon the gods.

 

[fjw70]

I think this just highlights how useless strength is for any non melee combatant, or alternately how over used dexterity is.

I wouldn't mind seeing STR and CON combined into a single stat (e.g. Brawn).

 

[ExploderWizard]

I think things would be simpler and make a bit more sense if the concept of finesse weapons died in a fire. STR should modify all melee damage and DEX all ranged damage. It would keep DEX from being quite as valuable as it is and make ignoring STR completely for a melee fighter a dumb idea as it should be.

 

[Paraxis]

I think things would be simpler and make a bit more sense if the concept of finesse weapons died in a fire. STR should modify all melee damage and DEX all ranged damage. It would keep DEX from being quite as valuable as it is and make ignoring STR completely for a melee fighter a dumb idea as it should be.

Very solid alternative, it helps tone down the incentive to maximize ability scores.
To replace the bonus to hit that the ability scores would normally give you could apply 'experitse' to weapons and give characters a certain amount of weapons they can apply double the proficiency bonus to attack with. That way for example 1st level characters would all have a +4 to attack with their primary weapons. Extend this to save DC's and have spellcasters get expertise with foci instead of weapons, so save DC would be 8 +proficiency +expertise instead of 8 +ability scores +proficiency.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Very solid alternative, it helps tone down the incentive to maximize ability scores.
To replace the bonus to hit that the ability scores would normally give you could apply 'experitse' to weapons and give characters a certain amount of weapons they can apply double the proficiency bonus to attack with. That way for example 1st level characters would all have a +4 to attack with their primary weapons. Extend this to save DC's and have spellcasters get expertise with foci instead of weapons, so save DC would be 8 +proficiency +expertise instead of 8 +ability scores +proficiency.

I think that finesse weapons should have had defensive bonuses instead of DEX to damage. Fencing weapons don't hurt more due to high DEX but they do provide a quicker parry defense.

 

[Minigiant]

One could claim that most soldiers don't maximize Dexterity and the same gos for elves.

The average elven warriors could go equal STR/DEX. (STR 15 DEX 15 CON 14). Or put the the 13 in their mental.

You expect elven town guards to wield rapiers?
What sort of silly army or military force wields rapiers?

No, most elven warriors who aren't specifically battlefield archers are strength based. They wield longswords and shields, don medium armor or elven chain, and have a bow and quiver strapped on their backs.

Main weapon: Longsword
Back weapon: Shortsword
Ranged weapon: Longbow or shortbow.
Armor: Medium

 

[Kobold Stew]

Yeah, it is an odd duck. My workaround is to have them proficient with the elven leaf blade - basically a rapier that does slashing damage instead (a finesse weapon, not versatile).

I think a pretty conscious decision was made for the elven weapon proficiency not to be a finesse weapon.

The only case I've found where elven weapon proficiency is an actual plus and not just fluff is for monks, who have good DX and an extra attack, but no native longbow proficiency. Plus, wood elves already make good monks.

It is also of benefit to archer rogues, who otherwise don't have proficiency in longbows, esp. if they can't/won't multi class into fighter for a level or two.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think that finesse weapons should have had defensive bonuses instead of DEX to damage. Fencing weapons don't hurt more due to high DEX but they do provide a quicker parry defense.

that is a cool alt idea, although one that could lead to AC inflation...

I think things would be simpler and make a bit more sense if the concept of finesse weapons died in a fire. STR should modify all melee damage and DEX all ranged damage. It would keep DEX from being quite as valuable as it is and make ignoring STR completely for a melee fighter a dumb idea as it should be.

why? would it not make more sense if all melee weapons used dex to hit and str to damage?

 

[Erik42]

I think things would be simpler and make a bit more sense if the concept of finesse weapons died in a fire. STR should modify all melee damage and DEX all ranged damage. It would keep DEX from being quite as valuable as it is and make ignoring STR completely for a melee fighter a dumb idea as it should be.

Quite agree. I'm going from playing 1E to 5E, so I don't know when the finesse weapon came into being but they seem to throw the game balance a little out of whack. However, I personally think that it is weird that a magic user can have as good of a chance to hit as a fighter in combat going just from ability and proficiency not using special abilities. It seemed to make more sense that a fighter was better at fighting than a cleric, a cleric better than a thief, a thief better than a magic user. I don't known maybe it's just me.

Regarding the elf's use of the long sword/short sword, one solution, instead of giving them simple proficiency, give them a +1 to hit. Or not, I'm also not terribly offended by switching their racial preference to the rapier. I'm debating the realism of the finesse weapon with myself. Yes, agility contributes to one's ability to move and evade in combat, but that is reflected in AC bonus. Even with a light weapon strength seems at least as important as dexterity. I thought of Gray Mouser, who, in my mind, seems to be the epitome of the high dexterity fighter, but the Mouser, while highly agile, possessed great supple strength.

Really an argument could be made either way. In the end each DM will do what they want based on what works best for their campaign.

 

[Parmandur]

Point buy is a variant rule; by the standard, which balance is based upon, an Elf is perfectly capable of rolling an 18 for strength.

And with really good rolls, an Elf Wizard could have, say, 14 strength. This would make a long sword very attractive in comparison to a cantrip, and be cool flavor.