D&D 5E (2014) The woes of the elf and his longsword

[Paraxis]

I know these days it's super un PC to say things like 'badwrong fun" and it's a cardinal sin to even hint that someone is playing the game the wrong way and whatnot, but if you have a role-playing game where you treat role-playing with such contempt? I think you're missing the point.


"If someone wants to roleplay over optimization? I'll teach 'em and they won't ever do that again."

Thank GOD I have never had anyone like you at my gaming table over the past 30+ years. We would not get along at all. I don't view the game as some sort of optimization competition between the DM and players, and especially not between players themselves.

The thing is I have no contempt to roleplaying, I love roleplaying or I wouldn't do it. I just happen to understand you can optimize, min/max, and power game all while roleplaying. In fact most of the optimization happens away from the table during character creation and level up.

See having your elf use a rapier over a longsword doesn't affect real roleplaying, just change your background to match the optimal build choices. The real roleplaying is the character interactions, the story, choices made, paths taken and not taken, npc's loved and lost. All of that doesn't really change if you use a rapier over a longsword, what does change is the game math that helps keep you and your allies up and if you come out on top.

In my games I just let people refluff most things, so the character has the stats written down for a rapier and in game it functions just like one, but I don't care what it looks like, it could made of crystal look like a fine elven longsword, be a big pointy stick for all I care. No character in my 5e games PC's or NPC's use leather armor, they all use the stats for studded leather it can be hard rigid leather plates, rare elf leaf armor, salamander skin, again don't care. The mechanics and math all work out the optimal way and the characters can refluff for "roleplay" backstory cool factor reasons all they want.

 

[Dausuul]

I think high elves should get proficiency with rapiers and drow should have proficiency with scimitars. The scimitar mechanics have already been adjusted to encourage Drizzt clones (why else make them light weapons?); might as well go the rest of the way.

 

[Hriston]

Sure the average elf has a strength of 10/11 and a dexterity of 12/13, giving the two stats a solid +1 difference. That's actually only a 5% gap between a dex-based and a str-based fighter, but this is really all beside the point. What I don't get about this discussion is that the elven heavy footman is not the average elf. Remember that there is a whole array of elves out there that are all over the spectrum between high-dex and high-strength. Some are neither. The ones who use the longsword to its greatest effectiveness are those who have a high strength stat. They may or may not also have a high dex. It isn't very likely to have both, but the elves with an emphasis on strength are obviously going to be the focus of the elves' martial culture.

If I was going to create an NPC that was a soldier or a man-at-arms, I'd roll 3d6 six times and put the highest number in strength, followed by dexterity and constitution, following a pattern similar to the guard NPC in the MM. On top of that I'd add +1 to strength and +3 to constitution, following AD&D guidelines. Adding the elven bonus to dexterity might then put it on par with strength, but it may not just as easily. The point is, the elven army, and the elven martial culture are built around strength based fighters, just like every other medieval fantasy army.

 

[Derren]

Very few elven traditions are born out of practicality. If you believe they are, you do not understand elves.

Every tradition is born out of practicality, they just tend to stay when they are no longer practical.

 

[BigVanVader]

This isn't related to anything, but I have a Wood Elf Barbarian, who I pictured as a mixture between Native American and Norse/Viking/Whatever Else(I was heavily inspired by the movie 'Pathfinder', no relation to the game.), and his strength AND Dex are both 15. He has ten javelins, two hand-axes, 6 daggers, and when if he throws all that and the target isn't dead, or if they get too close? Then it's Greatsword time.

He is a barrel of fun.

 

[Joe Liker]

Every tradition is born out of practicality, they just tend to stay when they are no longer practical.

Every human tradition, perhaps. Elves are not human, and this is one of the primary non-physical differences.

 

[Derren]

Every human tradition, perhaps. Elves are not human, and this is one of the primary non-physical differences.

Do you have something to back that statement up?

 

[Joe Liker]

Do you have something to back that statement up?

Yes, the fact that elves learn to use longswords as a racial trait.

Instead of claiming the fact is somehow wrong (which would be a literal contradiction of the most basic sort, as facts are correct by definition), why not just accept it and allow it to be explained by lore? How many monster origins boil down to "a wizard did it"?

 

[chriton227]

Every tradition is born out of practicality, they just tend to stay when they are no longer practical.

Not every tradition. The tradition of putting a star on top of a Christmas tree was never grounded in practicality, neither is watching the ball drop and singing Auld Lang Syne on New Years Eve. The traditions can just as easily be grounded in cultural or spiritual significance instead of current or prior practicality. As mentioned earlier in the thread, for elves and long swords, their creator Corellon wielded one, so learning to use it could be seen as a tradition to show reverence for their creator.

 

[Agamon]

Not every tradition. The tradition of putting a star on top of a Christmas tree was never grounded in practicality, neither is watching the ball drop and singing Auld Lang Syne on New Years Eve. The traditions can just as easily be grounded in cultural or spiritual significance instead of current or prior practicality. As mentioned earlier in the thread, for elves and long swords, their creator Corellon wielded one, so learning to use it could be seen as a tradition to show reverence for their creator.

Yep, and orcs take it a step further. Losing an eye is a great boon, thanks to Gruumsh, but it sure isn't practical.